Discussion:
Cuba's AIDS Sanatoria: Care and Prevention, Not Repression
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N***@blythe.org
2007-06-01 03:20:50 UTC
Permalink
Cuba's AIDS Sanatoria: Care and Prevention, Not Repression

Via NY Transfer News Collective * All the News that Doesn't Fit

Workers World - May 26, 2007
http://www.workers.org/2007/world/lavender-red-99/

Lavender & Red, part 99

AIDS quarantine in Cuba:

Care & prevention, not repression

By Leslie Feinberg
From both a scientific and human standpoint, the AIDS sanatoria health
care facilities in Cuba bore no relation to the threat of state
quarantine in the U.S.

In the U.S., there was no scientific merit to public proposals to
empower the state for surveillance and quarantine of people believed to
have AIDS. There was no way to identify how many people out of the vast
population had already been exposed. The epidemic was already
entrenched. AIDS was not spread through casual contact. And anti-gay
and racist scapegoating, laws against same-sex love, immigrant bashing,
and laws against IV drug use and prostitution had generated fear of the
state, as well as of coming forward for testing or treatment.

So threats of state investigation and forced isolation only drove the
epidemic deeper underground. The prohibitive costs of medical care,
particularly for those without health insurance, also barred many from
seeking health care.

Yet on March 2, 1984, USA Today revealed that California officials were
legally pursuing the ability to forcibly quarantine people believed to
have AIDS. The same month, the Democratic co-chair of the Connecticut
General Assembly’s Judiciary Committee introduced broad quarantine
legislation after a racist media campaign demonized a Black woman,
accused of prostitution and drug addiction, who was reported to have
AIDS.

Even as politicians were refusing to allocate the funds necessary to
meet this public health emergency, the big-business media were unjustly
accusing Haitian immigrants in the U.S. of spreading AIDS.

The late Michael Callen told Workers World at that time that the press
for quarantine powers was “not really to protect people but to further
certain political goals, to further isolate already disenfranchised
people.” Callen said that the singling out of a Black woman in
Connecticut and allegations without scientific basis that Haiti and
Africa were the sources of the epidemic were attempts “to blame all
calamity on the Third World.” (Workers World, April 5, 1984)

Gay men and bisexuals were blamed for the epidemic for much the same
reason that the church hierarchy in the Middle Ages accused Jewish
people of creating bubonic plague by “poisoning the wells.”

Media in the South and Jerry Falwell’s right-wing fundamentalist
publication “Moral Majority Inc.” editorialized that AIDS was God’s
“deserved punishments” against homosexuals. (aidssurvivalproject.org)

Far-right columnist Patrick Buchanan titled his commentary: “AIDS
Disease: It’s Nature Striking Back.” (New York Post, May 24, 1983)

That’s why the late Bobby Campbell, a San Francisco registered nurse
with AIDS, told Workers World on March 25, 1984, how concerned he was
about the political abuses of broad quarantine measures in the U.S. He
warned, “We would see gay men locked up en masse and it is possible in
more backward localities that lesbians could be included in that.”

The U.S. government declared war on people with AIDS rather than
marshal funds and forces to deal with the epidemic. Science, not
scapegoating

By contrast, Cuba—an island nation of 11 million that was blockaded by
U.S. imperialism—had prepared its health care system for the epidemic
two years before its first diagnosis of an AIDS case. So when AIDS
first emerged in the population, it could be easily identified and
isolated before being spread to the rest of the people.

In 1986, Cuba opened up 13 sanatoria that provided care for 99 people,
only 20 percent of whom were believed to have contracted AIDS through
same-sex contact. (Denver Post, Feb. 10, 2003)

Joseph Mutti wrote from Havana in June 1999, “Once a person has tested
HIV-positive, attempts are made to trace everyone who had sexual
contact with the person. Given Cubans’ general openness about their
sexuality, and Cuba’s cradle-to-grave health care system, it’s usually
possible to ascertain how and when a person was infected.

“The basic principle of the Cuban public health-care system, widely
recognized as the Third World’s best,” Mutti explained, “is to
prioritize the health of the population as a whole instead of focusing
exclusively on individual care. This is important for understanding
HIV/AIDS policies, including the sanatorium system that earned Cuba an
unfair reputation for employing repression to counter the
virus.” (“Love and Honesty: The Dawn of Gay Rights,” Resource Center of
the Americas.org)

The newspaper Granma explained Cuba’s reasons for using quarantine:
“The main usefulness of this measure is to slow down as much as
possible the epidemic progression of the disease to allow time for
other measures of disease control to have a medium- or long-term
effect, such as education (encouraging changes in sexual habits and
behavior), until such time as a vaccine and treatment exist, auguring a
definitive solution to the problem.” (“Cuban Strategy in the Struggle
Against AIDS,” Granma, Sept. 18, 1988)

When asked about the Cuban approach to AIDS, then-Cuban Deputy Public
Health Minister Hector Terry explained in October 1987, “The quarantine
center is a sanatorium. We have a very small number of people carrying
the virus, and we believe that because of that, we are in a unique
situation. We have an opportunity, in epidemiological terms, of
controlling the spread of AIDS and preventing it from becoming a major
epidemic as it has in other countries, where they don’t know how to
confront, reduce or eliminate it.

“We are in a situation that permits us to make this kind of decision,
and to wait a while because we are not talking about something
permanent, for a whole lifetime. We’re talking about a dialectical
situation.”

Terry added, “This aspect [quarantine] is controversial, some groups of
scientists disagree with it.” He said that the objections were “more
from a political than a scientific standpoint. But we believe our
country has this epidemiological opportunity and we shouldn’t lose it.
We are trying to prevent the spread of the virus throughout the country
by means of sexual relations that our patients could have with other
people who at this point have not been infected with the virus.”

“Our country has its own philosophy and the first principle of this
philosophy is respect for human dignity. I think that human dignity
requires care of the individual. You know that we spare no resources
here to make sure that our people have the best health care possible
anywhere in the world. And that’s part of what we’re trying to maintain
in our battle against AIDS.” (Interview with Karen Wald, Guardian, Oct.
28, 1987) The best care—for free

Cuba provided free health care to its population despite economic
obstruction by the U.S. and later the devastating loss of its main
trading partner, the Soviet Union. Cuba organized its scarce
resources—not just to stem transmission of the epidemic, but to provide
humane care.

“Organized like small communities,” MEDICC Review wrote, “the
sanatoriums are made up of apartment complexes and small houses, plus
infirmary, offices and other patient facilities.” (Vol. II, No. 1, 2;
2001)

People with AIDS received healthy food, medications and other
treatment, air-conditioned housing, exercise and sports, movies,
television, videos, rest, and psychological and social services;
everything was free except cigarettes.

Cubans with AIDS continued to receive their full paychecks, even if
they weren’t able to work. Their jobs were held open indefinitely.
Terry stressed, “This is very important, so that they have no concern
regarding the support of their families.

“What other country in the world would be capable of paying full salary
to people with AIDS? Terry asked. “I think that’s very linked to the
whole question of human rights and the controversies around this. We
know there are countries that shout about human rights, such as the
U.S. where a person who gets AIDS may die of hunger, lose his job, it’s
hard to get into a hospital. Treatment there costs an average of $700 a
day.”

Terry added that the Cubans’ families also received special attention.
A working group of psychologists, sociologists and social workers
helped the families of people with AIDS deal with their problems, as
well. Terry concluded that people with AIDS had greater peace of mind
knowing their families were being cared for.

Next: Cuba declared war on AIDS, not on people with AIDS

Articles copyright 1995-2007 Workers World. Verbatim copying and
distribution of this entire article is permitted in any medium without
royalty provided this notice is preserved.

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PL
2007-06-01 08:31:49 UTC
Permalink
Recent news articles:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/aids.php

Over 350 articles on aids in Cuba:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22aids%22+OR+%22sida%22&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8

How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the whole
Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?


Before MSF Cuba used "quarantine" as "solution".
MSF stepped in setting up prevention programs, bringing in condoms and
improving care.
But as comrade Dan wants to hide both the inhumanity and inefficiency of the
Cuban system the only option he has is to attack the record of MSF.
You are a lying hypocrite comrade Dan.


The facts:
- the uphill struggle of MSF against the system:


"Every once in a while, PWF loses hope due to the Cuban bureaucracy
and inflexibility, although now it is also beginning to see progress."
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/pax3.html


"But excessive administrative control by Cuban authorities and related
problems with local supply channels made it difficult for the
organization to continue running other projects independently and
effectively, prompting the decision to withdraw."
http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&objectid=6589C209-DC2C-11D4-B2010060084A6370&method=full_html

- where it all started:


"Two Dutch women have led an AIDS-prevention project in Havana since
1996. It distributes six million condoms a year."
Cuba: MSF closes its missions on the islandIn late 1999, Médecins Sans
Frontières made the difficult decision to discontinue its work in Cuba. Some
MSF programs in Cuba were successfully completed and handed over to the the
Ministry of Health. But excessive administrative control by Cuban
authorities and related problems with local supply channels made it
difficult for the organization to continue running other projects
independently and effectively, prompting the decision to withdraw. MSF
closed its last mission in Cuba in April 2000.
http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&objectid=6589C209-DC2C-11D4-B2010060084A6370&method=full_html

A candid interview with some doctors involved :

Physicians without Frontiers

Two Dutch women have led an AIDS-prevention project in Havana since
1996. It distributes six million condoms a year. The project is
increasingly involved
in the distribution of information. The program provides regular
consultation hours and brochures. It is geared mainly to male or female
prostitutes, who chiefly cater to the tourists who frequent Cuba in search
for sex. 'What is more, Cuba is extremely promiscuous', people say, 'because
there is no other type of diversion'. According to official sources, among a
population of 11 million, Cuba has 1.800 HIV-positive patients. Although the
regime's control on the population has been much stricter than in other
countries, it has decreased. This is due to the fact that medical
developments are going downhill. There is a dramatic increase in
sexually-transmitted diseases, although no public official figures are
available. The fear that such diseases may get out of control is probably
the reason why the Ministry of Health staff is unwilling to let the project
thrive. Every once in a while, PWF loses hope due to the Cuban bureaucracy
and inflexibility, although now it is also beginning to see progress. In two
years, the project is to be taken over by Cuban personnel. 'That is sure to
work', say the doctor and her assistant, during a too-costly lunch we share
in a too costly hotel. Later on, we inform both PWF and the nuns of Justitia
et Pax, who work in the poor neighborhoods and know the prostitutes, about
each other's work. Both were ignorant of each other's activities and
hesitant to show interest in learning about it. 'If they also could do
something about the cause of prostitution', was the first reaction, from one
who knows all the ins and outs of Havana's poor neighborhoods.
http://www.antenna.nl/paxchristi/cubaenpo.html#echo
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/pax3.html


- what Cuba's "solution" was before: lies and abuse.


MSF stepped in after years of underreporting AIDS in Cuba :


"Controlling AIDS in Cuba"
New England Journal of Medicine (09/21/89) Vol. 321, No. 12, P.
Gordon, Antonio M.



"AIDS in Cuba"
Lancet (08/26/89) Vol. 2, No. 8661, P. 512
"William Anderson of St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Boston writes that he
believes Cuba has not been candid in its reporting of HIV infection and AIDS
cases to the World Health Organization. "
See :


DOCTORS: Cuba may have serious AIDS problem
Miami Herald - FRI December 18 1987
http://ww2.aegis.org/news/mh/1987/MH871201.html


"The AIDS Conference: Critics Say Cuba Hiding HIV Epidemic"
San Francisco Sunday Examiner and Chronicle (06/24/90), P. D14
Krieger, Lisa M.


And after a policy of isolating AIDS sufferers in sometimes horrendous
circumstances :

Cuba's AIDS Quarantine Center Called 'Frightening'
Los Angeles Times - FRIDAY November 4, 1988
http://www.aegis.org/news/Lt/1988/LT881104.html

Cuba AIDS 'Solution' Lock 'Em Up
Miami Herald; Sunday, November 10, 1991
Elinor Burkett, Herald Staff Writer
http://ww2.aegis.org/news/mh/1991/MH911107.html


New Day for AIDS Policy in Cuba The nation, which has quarantined people
with HIV, is now allowing an international group to design a public health
campaign to prevent virus' spread.
(this refers to the Dutch MSF people referred to in the Pax Christi Report)
http://www.aegis.org/news/Lt/1997/LT970706.html


The isolation practice wasn't working anyway.
"Number of AIDS Carriers Grows in Cuba"
Reuter (06/01/89)



"Cuba's Push to Isolate AIDS"
Washington Post (02/14/89), P. 6
Preston, Julie



"Cuba's Quarantine for AIDS"
New York Times (02/06/89), P. A14

(some links may be inactive as they data back several years. For more info
search soc.culture.cuba)
Dan Christensen
2007-06-02 17:39:52 UTC
Permalink
Recent news articles:http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/aids.php
Over 350 articles on aids in Cuba:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22aids%22+OR+...
How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the whole
Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
[snip PL's same old lies and distortions]

This (and the rest of your ridiculous posting) has been repeatedly
debunked here. Most recently, see the thread, "Medical school is
propaganda tool."

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-05 08:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Recent news articles:http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/aids.php
Over 350 articles on aids in
Cuba:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22aids%22+OR+...
How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the whole
Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
[snip PL's same old lies and distortions]
This (and the rest of your ridiculous posting) has been repeatedly
debunked here.
(snip)

Never debunked comrade Dan.
Just snipped as usual.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-02 17:58:24 UTC
Permalink
correction
Recent news articles:http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/aids.php
Over 350 articles on aids in Cuba:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22aids%22+OR+...
How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the whole
Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
[snip PL's same old lies and distortions]

Repeatedly debunked here. Most recently, see the discusssion in the
thread, "Cuba Leads in Sex Education." Bottom line -- while they did
make an important contribution, all MSF did was set up an outreach
program and distribute free condoms. The Cuban government took over
that program and went on to set up its now world renowned AIDS
monitoring and treatment programs. (See original posting here, and
"Achievements of the Revolution" at my website.)


Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
krp
2007-06-02 20:12:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
correction
Recent news articles:http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/aids.php
Over 350 articles on aids in
Cuba:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22aids%22+OR+...
How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the whole
Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
[snip PL's same old lies and distortions]
Repeatedly debunked here. Most recently, see the discusssion in the
thread, "Cuba Leads in Sex Education." Bottom line -- while they did
make an important contribution, all MSF did was set up an outreach
program and distribute free condoms. The Cuban government took over
that program and went on to set up its now world renowned AIDS
monitoring and treatment programs. (See original posting here, and
"Achievements of the Revolution" at my website.)
Also let us not forget that Cuba initially dealt with the AIDS problem
by forced quarantine.Rounding up anyone "thought" to be infected with HIV
and placing them in camps. (Gay roundup.)
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-03 06:25:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Post by Dan Christensen
correction
Recent news articles:http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/aids.php
Over 350 articles on aids in
Cuba:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22aids%22+OR+...
How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the whole
Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
[snip PL's same old lies and distortions]
Repeatedly debunked here. Most recently, see the discusssion in the
thread, "Cuba Leads in Sex Education." Bottom line -- while they did
make an important contribution, all MSF did was set up an outreach
program and distribute free condoms. The Cuban government took over
that program and went on to set up its now world renowned AIDS
monitoring and treatment programs. (See original posting here, and
"Achievements of the Revolution" at my website.)
Also let us not forget that Cuba initially dealt with the AIDS problem
by forced quarantine.Rounding up anyone "thought" to be infected with HIV
and placing them in camps. (Gay roundup.)
And what happened when they were proven 'clean' ?

And what happened to the spread of aids in Cuba ?
krp
2007-06-03 14:48:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the whole
Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
[snip PL's same old lies and distortions]
Repeatedly debunked here. Most recently, see the discusssion in the
thread, "Cuba Leads in Sex Education." Bottom line -- while they did
make an important contribution, all MSF did was set up an outreach
program and distribute free condoms. The Cuban government took over
that program and went on to set up its now world renowned AIDS
monitoring and treatment programs. (See original posting here, and
"Achievements of the Revolution" at my website.)
Also let us not forget that Cuba initially dealt with the AIDS problem
by forced quarantine.Rounding up anyone "thought" to be infected with HIV
and placing them in camps. (Gay roundup.)
And what happened when they were proven 'clean' ?
And what happened to the spread of aids in Cuba ?
I am not sure. I know that tremendous international pressure was brought
on Cuba about the quarantine. I also know that Cuba was forced to abandon
the quarantine. I think in part because it didn't work. It just drive those
infected further underground and the infection rate exploded. But not much
is said at all about the quarantine.
Dan Christensen
2007-06-04 03:49:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the whole
Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
[snip PL's same old lies and distortions]
Repeatedly debunked here. Most recently, see the discusssion in the
thread, "Cuba Leads in Sex Education." Bottom line -- while they did
make an important contribution, all MSF did was set up an outreach
program and distribute free condoms. The Cuban government took over
that program and went on to set up its now world renowned AIDS
monitoring and treatment programs. (See original posting here, and
"Achievements of the Revolution" at my website.)
Also let us not forget that Cuba initially dealt with the AIDS problem
by forced quarantine.Rounding up anyone "thought" to be infected with HIV
and placing them in camps. (Gay roundup.)
And what happened when they were proven 'clean' ?
And what happened to the spread of aids in Cuba ?
I am not sure. I know that tremendous international pressure was brought
on Cuba about the quarantine. I also know that Cuba was forced to abandon
the quarantine. I think in part because it didn't work. It just drive those
infected further underground and the infection rate exploded.
Not since the beginning of the epidemic has the infection rate ever
"exploded" in Cuba. In fact, Cuba's HIV infection rate is one of the
lowest in the world -- approx. one sixth that of the USA according to
the latest UNAIDS stats.
http://www.unaids.org/en/HIV_data/2006GlobalReport/default.asp

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
krp
2007-06-04 14:57:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the whole
Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
[snip PL's same old lies and distortions]
Repeatedly debunked here. Most recently, see the discusssion in the
thread, "Cuba Leads in Sex Education." Bottom line -- while they did
make an important contribution, all MSF did was set up an outreach
program and distribute free condoms. The Cuban government took over
that program and went on to set up its now world renowned AIDS
monitoring and treatment programs. (See original posting here, and
"Achievements of the Revolution" at my website.)
Also let us not forget that Cuba initially dealt with the AIDS problem
by forced quarantine.Rounding up anyone "thought" to be infected with HIV
and placing them in camps. (Gay roundup.)
And what happened when they were proven 'clean' ?
And what happened to the spread of aids in Cuba ?
I am not sure. I know that tremendous international pressure was brought
on Cuba about the quarantine. I also know that Cuba was forced to abandon
the quarantine. I think in part because it didn't work. It just drive those
infected further underground and the infection rate exploded.
Not since the beginning of the epidemic has the infection rate ever
"exploded" in Cuba. In fact, Cuba's HIV infection rate is one of the
lowest in the world -- approx. one sixth that of the USA according to
the latest UNAIDS stats.
It was exploding when the quarantine was in effect Dannykins. Because it
made infected people hide, when Cuba adopted a much more enlightened program
and stopped repression of homosexuals (well almost) the infection rates
started to drop dramatically and Cuba now has one of the more effective HIV
programs in the world.
PL
2007-06-05 08:15:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up
the
whole
Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
[snip PL's same old lies and distortions]
Repeatedly debunked here. Most recently, see the discusssion in the
thread, "Cuba Leads in Sex Education." Bottom line -- while they did
make an important contribution, all MSF did was set up an outreach
program and distribute free condoms. The Cuban government took over
that program and went on to set up its now world renowned AIDS
monitoring and treatment programs. (See original posting here, and
"Achievements of the Revolution" at my website.)
Also let us not forget that Cuba initially dealt with the AIDS problem
by forced quarantine.Rounding up anyone "thought" to be infected with HIV
and placing them in camps. (Gay roundup.)
And what happened when they were proven 'clean' ?
And what happened to the spread of aids in Cuba ?
I am not sure. I know that tremendous international pressure was brought
on Cuba about the quarantine. I also know that Cuba was forced to abandon
the quarantine. I think in part because it didn't work. It just drive those
infected further underground and the infection rate exploded.
Not since the beginning of the epidemic has the infection rate ever
"exploded" in Cuba. In fact, Cuba's HIV infection rate is one of the
lowest in the world
(snip)

and from day 1 people have questioned the reporting, no?

"AIDS in Cuba"
Lancet (08/26/89) Vol. 2, No. 8661, P. 512
"William Anderson of St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Boston writes that he
believes Cuba has not been candid in its reporting of HIV infection and AIDS
cases to the World Health Organization. "

after MSF stepped in bringing in even the condoms (millions) that Cuba
didn't have some headway could be made.

New Day for AIDS Policy in Cuba The nation, which has quarantined people
with HIV, is now allowing an international group to design a public health
campaign to prevent virus' spread.
[this refers to the Dutch MSF people referred to in the Pax Christi Report]
http://www.aegis.org/news/Lt/1997/LT970706.html

Without MSF Cuba would have a large problem with a penal system for the
sick.

PL
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-05 08:57:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Without MSF Cuba would have a large problem with a penal system for the
sick.
You mean, 'penile' system don't you? ;-)

Isn't it odd how Cuba get's so much help from everyone in the world
except the US? And it IS help, you know.... it's not like they couldn't
kick them out or not allow them in to begin with. People generally like
Cuba... that is, with the exception of a few like you and the other US
dis-information agencies that put on the front of Cuba's "communist"
aggression and dictatorial suffering.
PL
2007-06-05 09:33:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Without MSF Cuba would have a large problem with a penal system for the
sick.
You mean, 'penile' system don't you? ;-)
Isn't it odd how Cuba get's so much help from everyone in the world
except the US?
the US is the largest source of remittances to Cuba: people to people help.
As far as US help to Cuba: Castro has refused US food aid for stricken
people at least twice in the past.

Friday, September 11, 1998 Published at 07:15 GMT 08:15 UK
World: Americas
Cuba to reject US aid
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/168987.stm

Source: Reuters Foundation
Date: 01 Oct 1998
U.S. disappointed Cuba rejects drought aid
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/OCHA-64CJVT?OpenDocument

"Hurricane Dennis caused about $1.4 billion in damage and killed 16 people
in Cuba, but the government there will refuse any aid from Washington or
Europe, Fidel Castro has announced."
See:
Castro rebuffs aid despite rising death toll, damage
Cuba's damages and deaths from Hurricane Dennis keep rising -- and so does
its government's resolve not to accept any help from Washington.
BY FRANCES ROBLES
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16726

This while even today 773,000 people in Cuba need food aid from the WFP
see: www.wfp.org
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
And it IS help, you know.... it's not like they couldn't
kick them out or not allow them in to begin with.
Cuba has a habit of "kicking out" people that helped it when the help
becomes "counterproductive" in propaganda terms.
MSF set up the anti Aids program in Cub and eventually was pushed out by
"administrative pestering":

"Every once in a while, PWF loses hope due to the Cuban bureaucracy and
inflexibility, although now it is also beginning to see progress."
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/pax3.html

"But excessive administrative control by Cuban authorities and related
problems with local supply channels made it difficult for the
organization to continue running other projects independently and
effectively, prompting the decision to withdraw."
http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&objectid=6589C209-DC2C-11D4-B2010060084A6370&method=full_html
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
People generally like
Cuba... that is, with the exception of a few like you
Nice attempt at a propaganda lie and the usual "defamation" crap, but unlike
you I care about and for Cubans.
You seem to only care about the regime.
Read up on Cuba in these human rights reports (links to over 100 of them):
http://www.cubaverdad.net/links_to_human_rights_reports.htm
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
and the other US
dis-information agencies
(snip)

Thanks for showing how "over the top" you are.
You just destroy your own credibility with that.
I don't mind.

For facts on Cuba see: www.cubaverdad.net

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-05 13:11:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Without MSF Cuba would have a large problem with a penal system for the
sick.
You mean, 'penile' system don't you? ;-)
Isn't it odd how Cuba get's so much help from everyone in the world
except the US?
the US is the largest source of remittances to Cuba: people to people help.
As far as US help to Cuba: Castro has refused US food aid for stricken
people at least twice in the past.
Friday, September 11, 1998 Published at 07:15 GMT 08:15 UK
World: Americas
Cuba to reject US aidhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/168987.stm
[snip]
"'Humanitarian aid from the United States government would be
humiliating, hypocritical and unacceptable when there is an economic,
trade and financial blockade against Cuba for the past 40 years,' said
Mr Gonzalez [a foreign ministry spokesman'."'

Which reminds me, we are STILL waiting for your comments on Amnesty
International's recent condemnation of your beloved embargo on
humanitarian grounds. (See "One simple question for PL on his beloved
embargo -- Week 6.")
Post by PL
"But excessive administrative control by Cuban authorities and related
problems with local supply channels made it difficult for the
organization to continue running other projects independently and
effectively, prompting the decision to withdraw."http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
The ultimate aim of any effective aid program is not to create
dependency, but to have locals become self-sufficient. And this is
just what Cuba did. They took over the MSF outreach program and
quickly went on to set up their own world-renowned AIDS monitoring and
treatment programs.
Post by PL
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
People generally like
Cuba... that is, with the exception of a few like you
Nice attempt at a propaganda lie and the usual "defamation" crap, but unlike
you I care about and for Cubans.
You "care" so much about the Cuban people that you have spent years
promoting genocidal trade sanctions against them! What a hypocrite!
(See featured article, "Is the US embargo a form of genocide?" at my
website.)

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-05 15:15:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Without MSF Cuba would have a large problem with a penal system for the
sick.
You mean, 'penile' system don't you? ;-)
Isn't it odd how Cuba get's so much help from everyone in the world
except the US?
the US is the largest source of remittances to Cuba: people to people help.
As far as US help to Cuba: Castro has refused US food aid for stricken
people at least twice in the past.
Friday, September 11, 1998 Published at 07:15 GMT 08:15 UK
World: Americas
Cuba to reject US aidhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/168987.stm
[snip]
"'Humanitarian aid from the United States government would be
humiliating, hypocritical and unacceptable
(snip)

what is unacceptable is that a leader of a country refuses food aid that
hundreds of thousands of people need for political reasons.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
"But excessive administrative control by Cuban authorities and related
problems with local supply channels made it difficult for the
organization to continue running other projects independently and
effectively, prompting the decision to
withdraw."http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
The ultimate aim of any effective aid program is not to create
dependency, but to have locals become self-sufficient.
(snip)

and MSF set up a great system but clearly felt that there was more to do.
But thanks for confirming they set up Cuba's system.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
People generally like
Cuba... that is, with the exception of a few like you
Nice attempt at a propaganda lie and the usual "defamation" crap, but unlike
you I care about and for Cubans.
You "care" so much about the Cuban people that you have spent years
promoting genocidal trade sanctions against them!
(snip)

There are no "genocidal" trade sanctions.
The trade sanctions are not "genocide" and you will again expose your own
lie by failing to post just one quote from a reputable international
organization referring to them as such.
Castro on the other hand is firmly on Genocide Watch's list:
See links and data at: http://www.cubaverdad.net/genocide.htm

The US is the largest food supplier of Cuba, a country whose people depend
for 84% of their basic foodstuffs on imports, and is it's 6th trading
partner.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-06 03:34:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Without MSF Cuba would have a large problem with a penal system for the
sick.
You mean, 'penile' system don't you? ;-)
Isn't it odd how Cuba get's so much help from everyone in the world
except the US?
the US is the largest source of remittances to Cuba: people to people help.
As far as US help to Cuba: Castro has refused US food aid for stricken
people at least twice in the past.
Friday, September 11, 1998 Published at 07:15 GMT 08:15 UK
World: Americas
Cuba to reject US aidhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/168987.stm
[snip]
"'Humanitarian aid from the United States government would be
humiliating, hypocritical and unacceptable
(snip)
what is unacceptable is that a leader of a country refuses food aid that
hundreds of thousands of people need for political reasons.
Remember, we are STILL waiting for your proof that sufficient aid was
not obtained from other sources.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
"But excessive administrative control by Cuban authorities and related
problems with local supply channels made it difficult for the
organization to continue running other projects independently and
effectively, prompting the decision to
withdraw."http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
The ultimate aim of any effective aid program is not to create
dependency, but to have locals become self-sufficient.
(snip)
and MSF set up a great system but clearly felt that there was more to do.
MSF did NOT set up Cuba's AIDS monitoring and treatment systems. All
they did was to setup up an outreach program to distrubute information
and free condoms. Quit pretending that they did any more than that.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
People generally like
Cuba... that is, with the exception of a few like you
Nice attempt at a propaganda lie and the usual "defamation" crap, but unlike
you I care about and for Cubans.
You "care" so much about the Cuban people that you have spent years
promoting genocidal trade sanctions against them!
(snip)
There are no "genocidal" trade sanctions.
The trade sanctions are not "genocide" and you will again expose your own
lie by failing to post just one quote from a reputable international
organization referring to them as such.
The facts have been documented by groups like Amnesty Interantional,
Human Rights Watch and even the Catholic church. And while you may
take comfort in the fact that you and your man, Dubya, have yet to be
arrested for these crimes, under Article 2c of the UN Genocide
Convention, your beloved embargo is indeed a form of genocide. (For
details, see featured article, "Is the US embargo a form of genocide?"
at my website.)
Did you forget about GW's recent climb-down in this regard, Mr.
Lobbyist? A major setback for all you embargo-Nazis, wasn't it?

Some time ago, I wrote to GW president, Gregory Stanton, pointing out
to him that no mainstream human rights group like Amnesty
International or Human Rights Watch will support the outrageous claims
at his website of some 75,000 deaths in Cuba. He could not explain
this, and simply referred me to their only source on Cuba -- a book by
US-based academic, Rudy Rummell. Apparently GW has never actually
investigated anything at all to do with Cuba! There isn't a single
article devoted to Cuba at their website -- only a large table listing
dozens of countries, perhaps for the purpose of impressing potential
donors, with a one-liner about Cuba.

Anyway, some time late in 2005, they withdrew their outrageous claim.
I won't claim responsibility, but now they wisely decline to give any
specific figure at all, their credibility on this matter in tatters.

Similarly the same year, the London-based International Centre for
Prison Studies, year also backed down on their outrageous claims about
Cuba. Now, they list the USA as having the highest incarceration rate
in the world, with Cuba a distant 8th. Must be frustrating as hell,
eh, Mr. Lobbyist?


Here is what HRW, as long ago as 1989, had to say about the
exaggerated claims of your political masters in Miami and Washington:

"...[T]he Commission's initial decision to review human rights in Cuba
was due in large part to exaggerated U.S. charges of ongoing political
executions, disappearances and torture... [T]he U.N. delegation to
Cuba found no evidence to support those allegations."
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1989/WR89/Cuba.htm

So, it would seem that the only genocide here is in fact your beloved
embargo. Makes you proud, don't it, Mr. Lobbyist -- your very own
Final Solution!
Post by PL
The US is the largest food supplier of Cuba, a country whose people depend
for 84% of their basic foodstuffs on imports, and is it's 6th trading
partner.
Already debunked here. See the current thread, "Cuba-US Trade
Increases, Despite Blockade."

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-06 09:53:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Without MSF Cuba would have a large problem with a penal system for the
sick.
You mean, 'penile' system don't you? ;-)
Isn't it odd how Cuba get's so much help from everyone in the world
except the US?
the US is the largest source of remittances to Cuba: people to people help.
As far as US help to Cuba: Castro has refused US food aid for stricken
people at least twice in the past.
Friday, September 11, 1998 Published at 07:15 GMT 08:15 UK
World: Americas
Cuba to reject US
aidhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/168987.stm
[snip]
"'Humanitarian aid from the United States government would be
humiliating, hypocritical and unacceptable
(snip)
what is unacceptable is that a leader of a country refuses food aid that
hundreds of thousands of people need for political reasons.
Remember, we are STILL waiting for your proof that sufficient aid was
not obtained from other sources.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
"But excessive administrative control by Cuban authorities and related
problems with local supply channels made it difficult for the
organization to continue running other projects independently and
effectively, prompting the decision to
withdraw."http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
The ultimate aim of any effective aid program is not to create
dependency, but to have locals become self-sufficient.
(snip)
and MSF set up a great system but clearly felt that there was more to do.
MSF did NOT set up Cuba's AIDS monitoring and treatment systems. All
they did was to setup up an outreach program to distrubute information
and free condoms. Quit pretending that they did any more than that.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
People generally like
Cuba... that is, with the exception of a few like you
Nice attempt at a propaganda lie and the usual "defamation" crap, but unlike
you I care about and for Cubans.
You "care" so much about the Cuban people that you have spent years
promoting genocidal trade sanctions against them!
(snip)
There are no "genocidal" trade sanctions.
The trade sanctions are not "genocide" and you will again expose your own
lie by failing to post just one quote from a reputable international
organization referring to them as such.
The facts have been documented by groups like Amnesty Interantional,
Human Rights Watch and even the Catholic church. And while you may
take comfort in the fact that you and your man, Dubya, have yet to be
arrested for these crimes, under Article 2c of the UN Genocide
Convention, your beloved embargo is indeed a form of genocide. (For
details, see featured article, "Is the US embargo a form of genocide?"
at my website.)
Did you forget about GW's recent climb-down in this regard, Mr.
Lobbyist? A major setback for all you embargo-Nazis, wasn't it?
You are the only one with "Nazi" attitude Dan Christensen

You support a regime that:
- is on the list of genocide Watch:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/genocide.htm
- does not allow freedom of speech - like the Nazi regime
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_speech.htm
- imprisons opponents (even having it's own concentration camps in the past:
the UMAP) - like the Nazi regime
http://www.cubaverdad.net/dissidents.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/independent_journalists_in_cuba.htm
more about the UMAP:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=UMAP&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
- tortures opponents:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/torture_in_cuba.htm
- violates human rights - like the Nazi regime
http://www.cubaverdad.net/universal_declaration_of_human_rights.htm
- persecuted gays until very recently - like the Nazi regime
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22gay%22+OR+%22homo%22&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
- burns books - like the Nazi regime
- uses harsh repression against its people and has a sophisticated system of
social control - like the Nazi regime
http://www.cubaverdad.net/totalitarian_system.htm
...
and of course there are your own words that show you attitude:
Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well worth
fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures. In this
case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.....
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At this
time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to send death
squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and Colombia. Again, the
actions of the Cuban government in detaining these so-called dissidents seem
quite mild in comparison and are morally justified under the circumstances."
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote
Post by Dan Christensen
Some time ago, I wrote to GW president, Gregory Stanton,
(snip)

That lie has been exposed over and over again:

YOUR LIE about Genocide Watch.

You falsely claimed the organization had copied (mindlessly) a number from a
book
by Rummel. Another case of "private information".
Upon verification it became clear that Rummel quoted a figure of 73,000
deaths attributable to the Castro regime.
Genocide Watch showed a figure of 75,000 which comrade Dan promptly
attributed to "sloppiness" in copying.

Your private lies can't refute the public record.
You tried this one on a couple of times and always failed.

Do you deny you got the numbers wrong in your lie and that the
"exclusive" source you falsely claimed was used by Genocide Watch (another
"private" message) actually
gave a LOWER figure than Genocide Watch.

" I have clearly shown that your claim that Mr. Rummel is the one and only
source Genocide Watch uses is false by proving that Mr. Rummel (whose
credibility you attack without proof) gives a different figures than
Genocide Watch (73,000 versus 75,0000). Genocide Watch correctly lists
Castro as a genocidal dictator because of his responsibility for the death
of over 75,000 people. "

When confronted with your lie you turned insult in to injury by claiming the
"made an error in copying", didn't you?

Dan's lie:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/ff0ab4c53757e8a0?dmode=source&hl=en

My exposure of his lie:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/a44230458e76b3c7?dmode=source&hl=en

Dan's pathetic claim Genocide Watch made a mistake:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/8eeb4ad61f1463d4?dmode=source&hl=en

Just keep making a fool of yourself comrade Dan.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
The US is the largest food supplier of Cuba, a country whose people depend
for 84% of their basic foodstuffs on imports, and is it's 6th trading
partner.
Already debunked here.
(snip)

Never debunked comrade Dan. Snipped as usual.
Confirmed by two Cuban news sources, only denied by the loony Stalinists
like you.

"Vice Minister of Economy and Planning Magalys Calvo reported that Cuba must
import 84% of its food that is distributed by ration cards in a speech at
the Provincial Assembly of Popular Power (local parliament) in Camagüey."
http://www.progresoweekly.com/index.php?progreso=Cuban_Radar&otherweek=1173420000

"The country imports 84 percent of the food destined to the population's
subsidized basic food basket annually"
http://www.cubanews.ain.cu/2007/feb26economiacuba.htm

"El país importa anualmente el 84% de los alimentos destinados a la canasta
básica"
http://www.granma.cubaweb.cu/2007/02/26/nacional/artic02.html

Get a life pathetic dogmatic liar.
Snipping the facts while resorting to pathetic lies and insults doesn't
change the facts.
You are so "loony" you even think you know better than the Cuban officials
what is going on.
Anyone will take their admissions over your lies.
Must be a bitch to see that your lies are debunked by the people you think
to serve, but then even Castro has debunked your lies already, hasn't he?

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-06 18:54:32 UTC
Permalink
"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message news:Vuv9i.216968$***@phobos.telenet-


< Snipped diatribe>


Dude,

I've said this before and I'll say it again.... I've never seen such a hypocrite as
you before. Every time you post some of your Anti-Cuban rhetoric or simple
bullshit, it seems to occur in any thread that's actually trying to help promote
Cuba or something good about Cuba. It's as if your sole intention is to spew
propaganda to convince people that there's something terribly wrong with one
of the smallest, most progressive countries in the world. While you say you
love your home of Cuba, you do everything within you grasp to make it appear
to be the worst place since the invention of hell... and everyone knows this is
false. Make up your mind, either you love the place or you would like to see it
destroyed, because ALL of your posts indicate the latter and make you look like
a complete fool, or a paid shill for false, deffamatory propaganda with the sole
intention of disrupting any progress in world relations (which, by the way, Cuba
happens do be doing *much* better in than the USA is lately).
PL
2007-06-06 22:37:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
< Snipped diatribe>
Dude,
I've said this before and I'll say it again.... I've never seen such a hypocrite as
you before.
actually; you are the hypocrite
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Every time you post some of your Anti-Cuban rhetoric
Nope.
I expose the propaganda lies.
Nothing "anti Cuban " about it. Pro Cuban actually.

Get back to us when you have something factual to post instead of a pack of
insults.

PL
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-07 19:06:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Pro Cuban actually.
Ha ! What a laugh.
Post by PL
Get back to us when you have something factual to post instead of a pack of
insults.
It's all you deserve, because that's all you are doing for Cuba.
krp
2007-06-07 21:11:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Pro Cuban actually.
Ha ! What a laugh.
He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Get back to us when you have something factual to post instead of a pack of
insults.
It's all you deserve, because that's all you are doing for Cuba.
Well PL seems to tell the truth about Cuba mostly. As does
www.therealcuba.com. Care to prove anything there to be false?
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-07 22:25:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Pro Cuban actually.
Ha ! What a laugh.
He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
I mean "pro" the success of the little country.

Twist my words all you like to be a seperatist ass, but it won't change my real meaning.
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Get back to us when you have something factual to post instead of a pack
of insults.
It's all you deserve, because that's all you are doing for Cuba.
Well PL seems to tell the truth about Cuba mostly. As does
www.therealcuba.com. Care to prove anything there to be false?
He's a fatalist jerk that refuses to see a speck of light at the end of the tunnel.
There's no room for that if progress is on the agenda.
krp
2007-06-08 15:09:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Pro Cuban actually.
Ha ! What a laugh.
He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
What success? Making it a tyranny?
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Twist my words all you like to be a seperatist ass, but it won't change my real meaning.
The simple FACT is that there is a division here, one is PRO CUBAN
GOVERNMENT (you) = repression of the Cuban people.

Versus being for the Cuban people = LIBERTY.

So in that sense PL is Pro Cuban meaning the people. You are pro-Cuban
meaning the dictator.
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-08 20:25:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Pro Cuban actually.
Ha ! What a laugh.
He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
What success? Making it a tyranny?
Tyranny? Why must you mince and twist words. It only makes you
either appear to be dumb or a complete asshole.... neither are flattering.
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Twist my words all you like to be a seperatist ass, but it won't change my
real meaning.
The simple FACT is that there is a division here, one is PRO CUBAN
GOVERNMENT (you) = repression of the Cuban people.
Look, you ignorant fucking shill... I'm pro America too... but I'd just as
soon see everyone in the Executive Branch hung by the neck until dead
on internation television.

Stop putting words into my mouth, asshole.
Post by krp
Versus being for the Cuban people = LIBERTY.
So in that sense PL is Pro Cuban meaning the people. You are pro-Cuban
meaning the dictator.
You're a fucking nut-case just like PL.....

Why don't you just go drop some bombs on Cuba?
krp
2007-06-08 22:33:01 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message news:GWiai.45$***@trnddc04...

DM vs PL
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Pro Cuban actually.
Ha ! What a laugh.
He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
What success? Making it a tyranny?
Tyranny? Why must you mince and twist words. It only makes you
either appear to be dumb or a complete asshole.... neither are flattering.
What? Are you claiming Cuba is NOT a tyranny? AT least I am not twisting
the truth.
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Twist my words all you like to be a seperatist ass, but it won't change my
real meaning.
The simple FACT is that there is a division here, one is PRO CUBAN
GOVERNMENT (you) = repression of the Cuban people.
Look, you ignorant fucking shill... I'm pro America too... but I'd just as
soon see everyone in the Executive Branch hung by the neck until dead
on internation television.
That sounds VERY "Pro American."
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Stop putting words into my mouth, asshole.
You do that all by yourself.
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Versus being for the Cuban people = LIBERTY.
So in that sense PL is Pro Cuban meaning the people. You are pro-Cuban
meaning the dictator.
You're a fucking nut-case just like PL.....
Why don't you just go drop some bombs on Cuba?
For starters I have family there. Secondly that would be YOUR solution.
Mine is to hope things change on their own and continue to have my affection
for the Cuban people. My wife is Cuban and she and I were married there. I
hold the Cuban PEOPLE in the highest esteem and the island as a wonderful
place but for the problems the government is having. (Corruption and
incompetence screwing things up. A failed system.)
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-09 08:23:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Look, you ignorant fucking shill... I'm pro America too... but I'd just as
soon see everyone in the Executive Branch hung by the neck until dead
on internation television.
That sounds VERY "Pro American."
Then you're not a much of a shill as you would appear.

;-)
krp
2007-06-09 15:16:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Look, you ignorant fucking shill... I'm pro America too... but I'd just as
soon see everyone in the Executive Branch hung by the neck until dead
on internation television.
That sounds VERY "Pro American."
Then you're not a much of a shill as you would appear.
That was SARCASM.
PL
2007-06-09 14:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Pro Cuban actually.
Ha ! What a laugh.
He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
That would mean an end to the current abusive system, no?
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Twist my words all you like
No need to.
They are clear: you don't want Cuban's to be able to freely express
themselves.

PL
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-09 19:06:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Pro Cuban actually.
Ha ! What a laugh.
He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
That would mean an end to the current abusive system, no?
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Twist my words all you like
No need to.
They are clear: you don't want Cuban's to be able to freely express
themselves.
PL
Dude.... if it was legal, I'd move to Cuba in a heartbeat.
krp
2007-06-09 22:46:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Pro Cuban actually.
Ha ! What a laugh.
He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
That would mean an end to the current abusive system, no?
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Twist my words all you like
No need to.
They are clear: you don't want Cuban's to be able to freely express
themselves.
PL
Dude.... if it was legal, I'd move to Cuba in a heartbeat.
For real? Can we take up a collection to buy the one-way ticket? It's
legal to go and STAY. Just apply to the Cuban Interests Section in
Washington, assuming you are in the U.S. or the nearest consulate if your
are not. BYE NOW! Have fun in your worker's paradise.
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-10 06:12:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Pro Cuban actually.
Ha ! What a laugh.
He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
That would mean an end to the current abusive system, no?
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Twist my words all you like
No need to.
They are clear: you don't want Cuban's to be able to freely express
themselves.
PL
Dude.... if it was legal, I'd move to Cuba in a heartbeat.
For real? Can we take up a collection to buy the one-way ticket? It's
legal to go and STAY. Just apply to the Cuban Interests Section in
Washington, assuming you are in the U.S. or the nearest consulate if your
are not. BYE NOW! Have fun in your worker's paradise.
Proof that you have no clue....
krp
2007-06-10 13:28:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Pro Cuban actually.
Ha ! What a laugh.
He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
That would mean an end to the current abusive system, no?
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Twist my words all you like
No need to.
They are clear: you don't want Cuban's to be able to freely express
themselves.
Dude.... if it was legal, I'd move to Cuba in a heartbeat.
For real? Can we take up a collection to buy the one-way ticket?
It's
legal to go and STAY. Just apply to the Cuban Interests Section in
Washington, assuming you are in the U.S. or the nearest consulate if your
are not. BYE NOW! Have fun in your worker's paradise.
Proof that you have no clue....
Don't worry Cuba would welcome you. You are just the mindless robot
they'd love! Do I know where you are from? I couldn't care less, but we'd
like to send you to Cuba. They NEED idiots just like you.

So why wouldn't it be legal for you to move there?
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-10 13:30:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Pro Cuban actually.
Ha ! What a laugh.
He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
That would mean an end to the current abusive system, no?
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Twist my words all you like
No need to.
They are clear: you don't want Cuban's to be able to freely express
themselves.
Dude.... if it was legal, I'd move to Cuba in a heartbeat.
For real? Can we take up a collection to buy the one-way ticket?
It's
legal to go and STAY. Just apply to the Cuban Interests Section in
Washington, assuming you are in the U.S. or the nearest consulate if your
are not. BYE NOW! Have fun in your worker's paradise.
Proof that you have no clue....
Don't worry Cuba would welcome you. You are just the mindless robot
they'd love! Do I know where you are from? I couldn't care less, but we'd
like to send you to Cuba. They NEED idiots just like you.
If you don't know where I'm from, you definitely are an idiot.
krp
2007-06-10 13:34:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Pro Cuban actually.
Ha ! What a laugh.
He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
That would mean an end to the current abusive system, no?
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Twist my words all you like
No need to.
They are clear: you don't want Cuban's to be able to freely express
themselves.
Dude.... if it was legal, I'd move to Cuba in a heartbeat.
For real? Can we take up a collection to buy the one-way ticket?
It's
legal to go and STAY. Just apply to the Cuban Interests Section in
Washington, assuming you are in the U.S. or the nearest consulate if your
are not. BYE NOW! Have fun in your worker's paradise.
Proof that you have no clue....
Don't worry Cuba would welcome you. You are just the mindless robot
they'd love! Do I know where you are from? I couldn't care less, but we'd
like to send you to Cuba. They NEED idiots just like you.
If you don't know where I'm from, you definitely are an idiot.
Some of your posts "SUGGEST" you live in the U.S., but I don't take
anything you say as literal. Like I don't buy the bullshit of the 3
Venezuelan intelligence operatives from the consulate with their bullshit.
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-10 18:32:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Do I know where you are from?
If you don't know where I'm from, you definitely are an idiot.
Some of your posts "SUGGEST" you live in the U.S.
You definitely *are* a stupid fuck.

Ever use the internet before you started whining or have you just whined since birth?

<plonk>
krp
2007-06-10 23:15:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Do I know where you are from?
If you don't know where I'm from, you definitely are an idiot.
Some of your posts "SUGGEST" you live in the U.S.
You definitely *are* a stupid fuck.
Ever use the internet before you started whining or have you just whined since birth?
OOO he's running away. Expected when he's caught.
PL
2007-06-10 16:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Pro Cuban actually.
Ha ! What a laugh.
He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
That would mean an end to the current abusive system, no?
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Twist my words all you like
No need to.
They are clear: you don't want Cuban's to be able to freely express
themselves.
PL
Dude.... if it was legal, I'd move to Cuba in a heartbeat.
For real? Can we take up a collection to buy the one-way ticket?
It's
legal to go and STAY. Just apply to the Cuban Interests Section in
Washington, assuming you are in the U.S. or the nearest consulate if your
are not. BYE NOW! Have fun in your worker's paradise.
Proof that you have no clue....
Nope.
he has a very good point. If you hate and reject the US policies on Cuba and
want to move there permanenetly no US law can stop you.
You are a lying hypocrite.

PL
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-10 18:34:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
You are a lying hypocrite.
You are the only hypocrite in this thread.
PL
2007-06-11 13:06:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
You are a lying hypocrite.
You are the only hypocrite in this thread.
Nope.
I deal in gacts.
Still waiting for you to move to Cuba.

For facts, not dogmatic fiction, about Cuba see: www.cubaverdad.net

You claim that "the only reason" why you don't move to Cuba is a US law.
That should be the least of your worries.
You are such a joke.

PL

PL
2007-06-10 16:30:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Pro Cuban actually.
Ha ! What a laugh.
He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
That would mean an end to the current abusive system, no?
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Twist my words all you like
No need to.
They are clear: you don't want Cuban's to be able to freely express
themselves.
PL
Dude.... if it was legal, I'd move to Cuba in a heartbeat.
Dude: once you are there US law doesn't matter.
Move. Give up your US citizenship and start living like a Cuba.
Note: it will then become "illegal" for you to leave Cuba without the
permission of the regime.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm
You are a hypocrite. If you truly wanted to go to Cuba and STAY there, you
could and would.
Philip Agee did.
Joanne Chesimard did.
Bye.

PL
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-10 18:36:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Give up your US citizenship
Ah... someone here has at least a pea-brained mental capacity.
Post by PL
Note: it will then become "illegal" for you to leave Cuba without the
permission of the regime.
Gee... just like America !!!



Say asshole... what's the matter... am I not responding to your
propaganda bullshit often enough so that you have to chase me
through other conversations to spread your anger?
krp
2007-06-10 23:17:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Give up your US citizenship
Ah... someone here has at least a pea-brained mental capacity.
Post by PL
Note: it will then become "illegal" for you to leave Cuba without the
permission of the regime.
Gee... just like America !!!
Nope you can LEAVE America any time you wish. I have been to Cuba
several times LEGALLY. Of course YOUR problem would be in getting back in
without being arrested, but since you have this PASSIONATE DESIRE to live in
Cuba, NO PROBLEM for you. But somehow, I don't think a twerp like you would
last long in Cuba.
PL
2007-06-09 14:45:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Pro Cuban actually.
Ha ! What a laugh.
Nope.
What a fact.
Why do you feel that the human rights of Cubans should not be respected?
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Get back to us when you have something factual to post instead of a pack of
insults.
It's all you deserve, because that's all you are doing for Cuba.
Nope.
it is all you have.

PL
krp
2007-06-07 03:31:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
I've said this before and I'll say it again.... I've never seen such a hypocrite as
you before. Every time you post some of your Anti-Cuban rhetoric or simple
bullshit, it seems to occur in any thread that's actually trying to help promote
Cuba or something good about Cuba. It's as if your sole intention is to spew
propaganda to convince people that there's something terribly wrong with one
of the smallest, most progressive countries in the world.
To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to the intelligence of the
world.
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-07 19:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to the intelligence of the
world.
What rock did you crawl out from under?

Try getting your news somewhere besides the USA.
krp
2007-06-07 21:09:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to the intelligence of the
world.
What rock did you crawl out from under?
Try getting your news somewhere besides the USA.
I have been to Cuba. And you? To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to
language. And an insult to those of us who read such crap. If you call
taking a society that had the third (or second depending on who did the
reporting) highest standard of living in the Western Hemisphere in 1957 and
today his the second lowest is HARDLY in my book being "progressive." Having
buildings (homes) collapsing, often with the inhabitants inside them,
causing deaths is hardly "progressive." Having transportation going from
modern to "primitive" is hardly progressive. Ever ride a horse cart to work
in any other capital city? Know another country where dump trucks are used
as buses? Or bicycle rickshaws (bici-taxis) A country where people, FEW
PEOPLE at that., drive 50 and 70 year old American cars. A country with a
internal SPY agency on its citizens COMMITTEE FOR THE DEFENSE OF THE
REVOLUTION. Tell me what YOU consider progressive?
I don't consider a near total lack of FREEDOM to be progressive. But feel
free to enlighten me..
Barry Schier
2007-06-07 21:55:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to the intelligence of the
world.
What rock did you crawl out from under?
Try getting your news somewhere besides the USA.
I have been to Cuba. And you? To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to
language. And an insult to those of us who read such crap. If you call
taking a society that had the third (or second depending on who did the
reporting) highest standard of living in the Western Hemisphere in 1957 and
today his the second lowest is HARDLY in my book being "progressive."
Disregarding the rest of the nonsense in this post, one should be
reminded that the country with the lowest standard of living in the
Western Hemisphere is U.S.-dominated Haiti and the dubious honor of
runner-up with "second lowest" standard of living in the Western
Hemisphere is Nicaragua (i.e., NOT Cuba), where the gains of the
Sandinista Revolution were mostly reversed in the almost 2 decades
following the ousting of the FSLN (Sandinistas) through a combination
of a U.S. proxy war and 1990 "elections." (The FSLN party was
returned to office in the most recent Nicaraguan presidential, etc.,
elections, with only most of the faces being the same as those during
the Sandinista revolution -- the FSLN had literally recanted re its
original program. The FSLN was one of the many parties in Nicaragua's
legislate to vote to make abortion even more illegal / inaccessible in
that country. Abortion is legal / accessible only in 3 countries
"south of the border": Cuba, Guyana, and another which now slips my
mind.) Third place "honors" in the race for poorest country in the
hemisphere belong to Bolivia (i.e., NOT Cuba), where a populist leader
(Evo Morales) is under increasing attack for trying to address the
problems and poverty caused by centuries of imperialism in a country
which was and still is rather rich in mineral and other resources.

Indeed, for opponents of the Cuban Revolution, Cuba's reduction of
infant mortality to the second lowest in the hemisphere and having a
life expectancy only about a year short of that of the U.S.A. (and
Cuba's world's highest ratio of doctors-to-population and FREE health
care) is not "progressive" at all, for it causes there to be more
people with awareness of the dastardly deeds of Washington on this
planet.

-- Barry Schier
Post by krp
Having
buildings (homes) collapsing, often with the inhabitants inside them,
causing deaths is hardly "progressive." Having transportation going from
modern to "primitive" is hardly progressive. Ever ride a horse cart to work
in any other capital city? Know another country where dump trucks are used
as buses? Or bicycle rickshaws (bici-taxis) A country where people, FEW
PEOPLE at that, drive 50 and 70 year old American cars. A country with a
internal SPY agency on its citizens COMMITTEE FOR THE DEFENSE OF THE
REVOLUTION. Tell me what YOU consider progressive?
I don't consider a near total lack of FREEDOM to be progressive. But feel
free to enlighten me..
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-07 22:39:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Schier
Cuba's reduction of
infant mortality to the second lowest in the hemisphere and having a
life expectancy only about a year short of that of the U.S.A. (and
Cuba's world's highest ratio of doctors-to-population and FREE health
care) is not "progressive" at all, for it causes there to be more
people with awareness of the dastardly deeds of Washington on this
planet.
Sanity.... it's pleasing to see. ;-)
krp
2007-06-08 15:06:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Schier
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to the intelligence of the
world.
What rock did you crawl out from under?
Try getting your news somewhere besides the USA.
I have been to Cuba. And you? To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to
language. And an insult to those of us who read such crap. If you call
taking a society that had the third (or second depending on who did the
reporting) highest standard of living in the Western Hemisphere in 1957 and
today his the second lowest is HARDLY in my book being "progressive."
Disregarding the rest of the nonsense in this post, one should be
reminded that the country with the lowest standard of living in the
Western Hemisphere is U.S.-dominated Haiti and the dubious honor of
runner-up with "second lowest" standard of living in the Western
Hemisphere is Nicaragua (i.e., NOT Cuba), where the gains of the
Sandinista Revolution were mostly reversed in the almost 2 decades
following the ousting of the FSLN (Sandinistas) through a combination
of a U.S. proxy war and 1990 "elections." (The FSLN party was
returned to office in the most recent Nicaraguan presidential, etc.,
elections, with only most of the faces being the same as those during
the Sandinista revolution -- the FSLN had literally recanted re its
original program. The FSLN was one of the many parties in Nicaragua's
legislate to vote to make abortion even more illegal / inaccessible in
that country. Abortion is legal / accessible only in 3 countries
"south of the border": Cuba, Guyana, and another which now slips my
mind.) Third place "honors" in the race for poorest country in the
hemisphere belong to Bolivia (i.e., NOT Cuba), where a populist leader
(Evo Morales) is under increasing attack for trying to address the
problems and poverty caused by centuries of imperialism in a country
which was and still is rather rich in mineral and other resources.
OBFUSCATION! The FACT remains that in 1957 capitalist Cuba had the 3rd
highest standard of living in the western hemisphere, was in the top 10 in
the world. Today is the second lowest in the western hemisphere and in the
bottom 25 in the world. Now we she a propaganda shit to NICURAGUA to mask
the discussion of CUBA. Well Barry, when you can't dazzle the folks with
brilliance, baffle them with bullshit. CHAGE THE SUBJECT and hope nobody
notices the dodge.
Post by Barry Schier
Indeed, for opponents of the Cuban Revolution, Cuba's reduction of
infant mortality to the second lowest in the hemisphere and having a
life expectancy only about a year short of that of the U.S.A. (and
Cuba's world's highest ratio of doctors-to-population and FREE health
care) is not "progressive" at all, for it causes there to be more
people with awareness of the dastardly deeds of Washington on this
planet.
The infant mortaility rate in Cuba was low when Fidel took over. It
isn't much lower today. Add to that the SERIOUS challenges to the statistics
that Cuba propagandizes even by doctors who have defected from Cuba and what
we are lift with is that most of this is all bullshit.

Of course NONE of this answers the many questions about Cuba that were
raised, it CHANEGS THE SUBJECT.. How expected.
Post by Barry Schier
Having buildings (homes) collapsing, often with the inhabitants inside
them,
causing deaths is hardly "progressive." Having transportation going from
modern to "primitive" is hardly progressive. Ever ride a horse cart to work
in any other capital city? Know another country where dump trucks are used
as buses? Or bicycle rickshaws (bici-taxis) A country where people, FEW
PEOPLE at that, drive 50 and 70 year old American cars. A country with a
internal SPY agency on its citizens COMMITTEE FOR THE DEFENSE OF THE
REVOLUTION. Tell me what YOU consider progressive?
I don't consider a near total lack of FREEDOM to be progressive. But feel
free to enlighten me..
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-08 20:25:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
OBFUSCATION!
IDIOT
krp
2007-06-08 22:33:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
OBFUSCATION!
IDIOT
Signing your name?
Unclefred
2007-06-08 20:55:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Schier
Having buildings (homes) collapsing, often with the inhabitants inside
them,
causing deaths is hardly "progressive."
Haven't heard of this happening in Cuba. Heard of a disaster in New
Orleans though and the government still has not helped many who lived there
return home. Hundreds of thousands of homeless people are still trying to
find a place to live and the U.S. government does nothing to help them. Is
that because they're black?
Post by Barry Schier
Having transportation going from
modern to "primitive" is hardly progressive. Ever ride a horse cart to work
in any other capital city?
Perhaps if more people did that, there'd be less global warming and fewer
hurricanes. Perhaps we'd be less out of touch with nature and maybe
happier in the long run.
Post by Barry Schier
Know another country where dump trucks are
used
as buses? Or bicycle rickshaws (bici-taxis)
Maybe China or India, but it's not what I have come to know as Cuban
either. There cannot be a lot of this, and your data may be dated now, or
likely just plain untrue.
Post by Barry Schier
A country where people, FEW
PEOPLE at that, drive 50 and 70 year old American cars.
America made better cars in those days. I think. How come you can't keep
them going in the States. You have a culture of disposable cars driven by
advertising and planned obsolescence. It's a freaking rat race in the
States. You should stop running on those treadmills and start thinking
about caring for one another for a change. There's a lot more to life than
getting more toys than everybody else before you die.
Post by Barry Schier
A country with a
internal SPY agency on its citizens COMMITTEE FOR THE DEFENSE OF THE
REVOLUTION.
That committee used to deal with spies and infiltrators, maybe they still
do to some extent, but they are more likely to be found organizing blood
doner clinics and community events these days.
Post by Barry Schier
Tell me what YOU consider progressive?
Health care for everybody regardless of wealth or social status. Free
education through the first university degree. Healthy organic foods grown
locally and an end to hunger.
Post by Barry Schier
I don't consider a near total lack of FREEDOM to be progressive. But
feel free to enlighten me..
"Freedom?" Do you mean the freedom to starve to death on the streets if
there's no corporation that needs you at the moment? Do you mean the
freedom to compete in the economy when you have no tools to compete with
and everybody is your economic enemy.

Remember there are millions of children going to bed in the streets around
the world, homeless. Some of these are in the U.S. Not one of these
children lives in Cuba. If Cuba can provide so much for it's people when
Cuba has so little and suffers the embargo of a superpower right next door,
why can't the U.S., the richest country in the world, do the same for it's
citizens?
When it comes to loving ones neighbours and living life in peace and calm
productivity, Cuba has it all over other countries in this hemisphere.
Washington calls Cuba a dictatorship, but Washington uses that term on any
country it doesn't control. Cuba has elections every 5 years and a recall
procedure that is easier than the process to impeach a president in the
U.S. Many Americans are sorry about that right now.
--
Regards, Fred
Remove FFFf from my address to reply.
---------------------------------------------------
krp
2007-06-08 22:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Unclefred
Post by Barry Schier
Having buildings (homes) collapsing, often with the inhabitants inside
them,
causing deaths is hardly "progressive."
Haven't heard of this happening in Cuba.
Don't get out much do you? I took pictures of some of the buildings when
I was in Cuba. You can see other photos of the disintegration at
www.therealcuba.com. Ot you can try to bullshit about it.
Post by Unclefred
Heard of a disaster in New Orleans though and the government still has not
helped many who lived there
return home. Hundreds of thousands of homeless people are still trying to
find a place to live and the U.S. government does nothing to help them.
Is
that because they're black?
We all have heard of Katrina. But Cuba is suffering from a different
hurricane - Fidel. Construction is going on all over New Orleans. The city
wasn't built in a day and won't be rebuilt in a day either. But lots of the
city has either been rebuilt or is under construction to NEW standards..
Color has nothing to do with it.
Post by Unclefred
Post by Barry Schier
Having transportation going from modern to "primitive" is hardly
progressive. Ever ride a horse cart to
work in any other capital city?
Perhaps if more people did that, there'd be less global warming and fewer
hurricanes. Perhaps we'd be less out of touch with nature and maybe
happier in the long run.
Post by Barry Schier
Know another country where dump trucks are used
as buses? Or bicycle rickshaws (bici-taxis)
Maybe China or India, but it's not what I have come to know as Cuban
either. There cannot be a lot of this, and your data may be dated now, or
likely just plain untrue.
You are a comple bullshitter. Sorry Uncle Fred, I was in Cuba last year.
I took photos of the Bici-Taxis, the horse carts, the dump-truck buses, the
Cameos, and the like. China has pretty well mechanized with new things.
China is selling Cuba buses, not meny, and they aren't real good, they keep
breaking down, but what Cuba has today for city transportation is primitive.
Cuba is famous for the OLD OLD OLD OLD American cars some going back to the
20's many from the 50's. You can deny it all you want. But photos showing
what I am talking about can be seen at www.the realcuba.com and
www.cubaverdad.net.
Post by Unclefred
Post by Barry Schier
A country where people, FEW
PEOPLE at that, drive 50 and 70 year old American cars.
America made better cars in those days. I think. How come you can't keep
them going in the States. You have a culture of disposable cars driven by
advertising and planned obsolescence. It's a freaking rat race in the
States. You should stop running on those treadmills and start thinking
about caring for one another for a change. There's a lot more to life than
getting more toys than everybody else before you die.
Sorry the U.S. is buiulding FAR better cars today than in the 50's! We
keep them going when we want to, but HERE people can afford NEW cars. Hard
to do when the average Cuban only earns the equivalent of $6.50 a month.
Thanks for your evaluation on how we should live, but I'll take life here
long before I would life in Europe etc. I might like life in Costa Rica, or
even a free Cuba.
Post by Unclefred
Post by Barry Schier
A country with a internal SPY agency on its citizens COMMITTEE FOR THE
DEFENSE OF THE
REVOLUTION.
That committee used to deal with spies and infiltrators, maybe they still
do to some extent, but they are more likely to be found organizing blood
doner clinics and community events these days.
BULLSHIT! It deals with spying on each other. State Security deals with
spies, the CDR deals with tracking people who say or do anything that is
counter revolutionary. Even talking to a foreigner can be considered
subversive. My wife caught all sorts of shit for being involved with an
American, and marrying one.
(ME) You have no idea what the CDR does in tattling on neighbors to say the
wrong things.
Post by Unclefred
Post by Barry Schier
Tell me what YOU consider progressive?
Health care for everybody regardless of wealth or social status.
Free
education through the first university degree. Healthy organic foods grown
locally and an end to hunger.
Actually, WEENIE, education is FREE through multiple college degrees.
PhD and beyond. Health care? You have to be kidding me. Medical aparthheid
where foreigners get a decent set of medical care and the Cuban PEOPLE get
shit! Again LOOK at what the Cubans get and what foreigners who PAY in
Yankee dollars get. If you think hunger has ended in Cuba you are witless.
Post by Unclefred
Post by Barry Schier
I don't consider a near total lack of FREEDOM to be progressive. But
feel free to enlighten me..
"Freedom?" Do you mean the freedom to starve to death on the streets if
there's no corporation that needs you at the moment? Do you mean the
freedom to compete in the economy when you have no tools to compete with
and everybody is your economic enemy.
ALmost nobody starves to death in the U.S. with public assistance. In
FCAT the poorest Americans on publ;ic aid get nearly 10 times the food per
month as the average EMPLOYED Cuban gets in a year.
Post by Unclefred
Remember there are millions of children going to bed in the streets around
the world, homeless. Some of these are in the U.S. Not one of these
children lives in Cuba. If Cuba can provide so much for it's people when
Cuba has so little and suffers the embargo of a superpower right next door,
why can't the U.S., the richest country in the world, do the same for it's
citizens?
Yes there are. They do in Cuba too, that's why the EAST of Cuba is on
the U.N. WFP program. You're wrong.
Post by Unclefred
When it comes to loving ones neighbours and living life in peace and calm
productivity, Cuba has it all over other countries in this hemisphere.
Washington calls Cuba a dictatorship, but Washington uses that term on any
country it doesn't control. Cuba has elections every 5 years and a recall
procedure that is easier than the process to impeach a president in the
U.S. Many Americans are sorry about that right now.
IS that why all the houses in Cuba have reinforced iron bars over the
doors and windows? Better stop reading the propaganda blogs and go see
sometime, check your bullshit against the reality shown in photos at
www.therealcuba.com
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-09 08:24:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Don't get out much do you? I took pictures of some of the buildings when
I was in Cuba. You can see other photos of the disintegration at
www.therealcuba.com. Ot you can try to bullshit about it.
I could smoke those with some pictures taken near downtown Dallas, tomorrow.
krp
2007-06-09 15:25:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Don't get out much do you? I took pictures of some of the buildings when
I was in Cuba. You can see other photos of the disintegration at
www.therealcuba.com. Or you can try to bullshit about it.
I could smoke those with some pictures taken near downtown Dallas, tomorrow.
Who denies there is poverty in places in America? Your diversions and
excuses are unimpressive. Many of those photos show the decay along the
Malecon the most important magnet for tourists and Havana's history. Many of
the buildings you see falling down were historically and architecturally
significant, the shit you can show in Dallas or Chicago or Newark are NOT!
They're slums. Havana was known in 1957 as the MOST beautiful capital city
in the western hemisphere. Today it is a shame and even the Cuban government
NOW admits it. Your problem is that you keep making excuses for the
inexcusable.

You can only "smoke" weed guy. Not the truth.
Unclefred
2007-06-09 11:08:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Post by Unclefred
Post by Barry Schier
Having buildings (homes) collapsing, often with the inhabitants inside
them,
causing deaths is hardly "progressive."
Haven't heard of this happening in Cuba.
Don't get out much do you? I took pictures of some of the buildings when
I was in Cuba. You can see other photos of the disintegration at
www.therealcuba.com. Ot you can try to bullshit about it.
You don't have a great record of honesty, and you type too quickly, or
you'd catch more of those spelling errors. Well, we can all make those.
The CIA spends a lot of time faking evidence and statistics for people like
you to quote on the internet.
The bottom line for me is, "Am I going to trust the U.S. viewpoint when
they are spreading wars of aggression to expand and maintain their
empire,... when they establish a world-wide system of torture camps and
pollute nation after nation with depleted uranium and on and on the list
goes." "OR, am I going to trust Cuba that is building a democratically
oriented socialism and exporting health care, thousands of doctors,
education and literacy." There's no bullshit there. Know the tree by the
fruit which it bears!
--
Regards, Fred
Remove FFFf from my address to reply.
---------------------------------------------------
krp
2007-06-09 15:27:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Unclefred
Post by krp
Post by Unclefred
Post by Barry Schier
Having buildings (homes) collapsing, often with the inhabitants inside
them,
causing deaths is hardly "progressive."
Haven't heard of this happening in Cuba.
Don't get out much do you? I took pictures of some of the buildings when
I was in Cuba. You can see other photos of the disintegration at
www.therealcuba.com. Or you can try to bullshit about it.
You don't have a great record of honesty, and you type too quickly, or
you'd catch more of those spelling errors. Well, we can all make those.
But when we are desperate and lack FACTS we can toss spell flames.
Post by Unclefred
The CIA spends a lot of time faking evidence and statistics for people
like you to quote on the internet.
I don't listen to anything the CIA has to say. I ahve seen for myself.
Post by Unclefred
The bottom line for me is, "Am I going to trust the U.S. viewpoint when
they are spreading wars of aggression to expand and maintain their
empire,... when they establish a world-wide system of torture camps and
pollute nation after nation with depleted uranium and on and on the list
goes." "OR, am I going to trust Cuba that is building a democratically
oriented socialism and exporting health care, thousands of doctors,
education and literacy." There's no bullshit there. Know the tree by the
fruit which it bears!
Calling Cuba "democratic" is the height of deceit. Look at how the Cuban
people live and wake up, it's ALL a big lie.
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-10 06:13:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
I don't listen to anything the CIA has to say. I ahve seen for myself.
Since you don't know what the CIA is doing (besides selling drugs) we
assumed as much.
Post by krp
Calling Cuba "democratic" is the height of deceit. Look at how the Cuban
Cuban people live and wake up, it's ALL a big lie.
Nope... it's "Cuba"... currently building better international relationships
than the US can build.
krp
2007-06-10 13:29:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
I don't listen to anything the CIA has to say. I have seen for
myself.
Since you don't know what the CIA is doing (besides selling drugs) we
assumed as much.
You have a mouse in your pocket?
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Calling Cuba "democratic" is the height of deceit. Look at how the Cuban
Cuban people live and wake up, it's ALL a big lie.
Nope... it's "Cuba"... currently building better international
relationships than the US can build.
You really think so? When the shit hits the fan, see where the world
runs for help. HINT - it will NEVER be Cuba.
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-11 06:35:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
You really think so? When the shit hits the fan, see where the world
runs for help. HINT - it will NEVER be Cuba.
It will be China.... but you've changed the subject once again.
PL
2007-06-10 16:32:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
I don't listen to anything the CIA has to say. I ahve seen for myself.
Since you don't know what the CIA is doing (besides selling drugs) we
assumed as much.
Post by krp
Calling Cuba "democratic" is the height of deceit. Look at how the Cuban
Cuban people live and wake up, it's ALL a big lie.
Nope... it's "Cuba"... currently building better international
relationships
than the US can build.
But Cubans can only leave their country with the explicit permission of
their government no?
Do you deny they need exit and re-entry visas for their own country?
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm

PL
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-09 08:23:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Unclefred
Heard of a disaster in New
Orleans though and the government still has not helped many who lived there
return home. Hundreds of thousands of homeless people are still trying to
find a place to live and the U.S. government does nothing to help them.
Are you kidding me? Some of them are still living in hotels at YOUR expense.
Post by Unclefred
You have a culture of disposable cars driven by
advertising and planned obsolescence. It's a freaking rat race in the
States. You should stop running on those treadmills and start thinking
about caring for one another for a change. There's a lot more to life than
getting more toys than everybody else before you die.
If you run for office, you would probably get my vote.

;-)
Post by Unclefred
Remember there are millions of children going to bed in the streets around
the world, homeless. Some of these are in the U.S. Not one of these
children lives in Cuba. If Cuba can provide so much for it's people when
Cuba has so little and suffers the embargo of a superpower right next door,
why can't the U.S., the richest country in the world, do the same for it's
citizens?
When it comes to loving ones neighbours and living life in peace and calm
productivity, Cuba has it all over other countries in this hemisphere.
Washington calls Cuba a dictatorship, but Washington uses that term on any
country it doesn't control. Cuba has elections every 5 years and a recall
procedure that is easier than the process to impeach a president in the
U.S. Many Americans are sorry about that right now.
Hmmmm..... a breath of fresh air in the comprehension department.
Unclefred
2007-06-09 11:15:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by Unclefred
Heard of a disaster in New
Orleans though and the government still has not helped many who lived there
return home. Hundreds of thousands of homeless people are still trying
to find a place to live and the U.S. government does nothing to help
them.
Are you kidding me? Some of them are still living in hotels at YOUR expense.
Are they? Well others are still homeless. Odd that so many of those are
black. You don't suppose that the administration has anything against
Black people, do you? Ya think,... maybe?... l'il bit?
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by Unclefred
You have a culture of disposable cars driven by
advertising and planned obsolescence. It's a freaking rat race in the
States. You should stop running on those treadmills and start thinking
about caring for one another for a change. There's a lot more to life
than getting more toys than everybody else before you die.
If you run for office, you would probably get my vote.
;-)
No plans in that direction, but thanks. I'm working on becoming another
Michael Moore. (;-))
--
Regards, Fred
Remove FFFf from my address to reply.
---------------------------------------------------
krp
2007-06-09 15:21:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Unclefred
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by Unclefred
Heard of a disaster in New
Orleans though and the government still has not helped many who lived there
return home. Hundreds of thousands of homeless people are still trying
to find a place to live and the U.S. government does nothing to help
them.
Are you kidding me? Some of them are still living in hotels at YOUR expense.
Are they? Well others are still homeless. Odd that so many of those are
black. You don't suppose that the administration has anything against
Black people, do you? Ya think,... maybe?... l'il bit?
Uh guy - the people living in hotels etc ARE listed as "homeless" and
are paid for by the U.S. taxpayer! As we type thousands of homes are being
rebuilt. Given the near TOTAL destruction of hundreds of thousands of home
of really SHITTY construction rebuilding them to an acceptable code that
would survive another hurricane isn't done in a few minutes. Most of those
OLD homes were slapped together cracker boxes. What is being built meets
TODAY'S codes to withstand another hurricane. That takes time. It has
nothing to do with race. As the homes are finished the BLACK folks are
getting much better homes than they had.
Unclefred
2007-06-10 00:07:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Post by Unclefred
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by Unclefred
Heard of a disaster in New
Orleans though and the government still has not helped many who lived there
return home. Hundreds of thousands of homeless people are still trying
to find a place to live and the U.S. government does nothing to help
them.
Are you kidding me? Some of them are still living in hotels at YOUR expense.
Are they? Well others are still homeless. Odd that so many of those are
black. You don't suppose that the administration has anything against
Black people, do you? Ya think,... maybe?... l'il bit?
Uh guy - the people living in hotels etc ARE listed as "homeless" and
are paid for by the U.S. taxpayer! As we type thousands of homes are being
rebuilt. Given the near TOTAL destruction of hundreds of thousands of home
of really SHITTY construction rebuilding them to an acceptable code that
would survive another hurricane isn't done in a few minutes. Most of those
OLD homes were slapped together cracker boxes. What is being built meets
TODAY'S codes to withstand another hurricane. That takes time. It has
nothing to do with race. As the homes are finished the BLACK folks are
getting much better homes than they had.
Lies. The feds have given Haliburton millions of dollars to build upscale
condominiums that the poor people displaced from New Orleans will never
have a hope of living in. Blacks have been displaced by Whites. New
Orleans will never be the same again. God bless all the victims.
--
Regards, Fred
Remove FFFf from my address to reply.
---------------------------------------------------
krp
2007-06-10 13:26:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Unclefred
Post by krp
Post by Unclefred
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by Unclefred
Heard of a disaster in New Orleans though and the government still has
not helped many who lived
there return home. Hundreds of thousands of homeless people are still
trying
to find a place to live and the U.S. government does nothing to help
them.
Are you kidding me? Some of them are still living in hotels at YOUR expense.
Are they? Well others are still homeless. Odd that so many of those are
black. You don't suppose that the administration has anything against
Black people, do you? Ya think,... maybe?... l'il bit?
Uh guy - the people living in hotels etc ARE listed as "homeless" and
are paid for by the U.S. taxpayer! As we type thousands of homes are being
rebuilt. Given the near TOTAL destruction of hundreds of thousands of home
of really SHITTY construction rebuilding them to an acceptable code that
would survive another hurricane isn't done in a few minutes. Most of those
OLD homes were slapped together cracker boxes. What is being built meets
TODAY'S codes to withstand another hurricane. That takes time. It has
nothing to do with race. As the homes are finished the BLACK folks are
getting much better homes than they had.
Lies. The feds have given Haliburton millions of dollars to build upscale
condominiums that the poor people displaced from New Orleans will never
have a hope of living in. Blacks have been displaced by Whites. New
Orleans will never be the same again. God bless all the victims.
In some areas condos are going up. However home builders from all over
the country have come to New Orleans and the surrounding area and are
building homes for the people. Better homes that meet new hurricane codes.
Some places are being rebuilt that have historical significance, but in most
cases in the 9th ward of New Orleans that houses were cracker boxes thrown
up in the 1920's that were never safe. They are being replaced with NEW
homes that ARE safe. You can slap together SHIT in a hurry. To build good
SAFE homes takes a while. Halliburton isn't building homes.
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-11 06:37:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Halliburton isn't building homes.
You wouldn't shit me now would you spaghetti-brain?
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-10 06:17:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
Post by Unclefred
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by Unclefred
Heard of a disaster in New
Orleans though and the government still has not helped many who lived there
return home. Hundreds of thousands of homeless people are still trying
to find a place to live and the U.S. government does nothing to help
them.
Are you kidding me? Some of them are still living in hotels at YOUR expense.
Are they? Well others are still homeless. Odd that so many of those are
black. You don't suppose that the administration has anything against
Black people, do you? Ya think,... maybe?... l'il bit?
Uh guy - the people living in hotels etc ARE listed as "homeless" and
are paid for by the U.S. taxpayer! As we type thousands of homes are being
rebuilt. Given the near TOTAL destruction of hundreds of thousands of home
of really SHITTY construction rebuilding them to an acceptable code that
would survive another hurricane isn't done in a few minutes. Most of those
OLD homes were slapped together cracker boxes. What is being built meets
TODAY'S codes to withstand another hurricane. That takes time. It has
nothing to do with race. As the homes are finished the BLACK folks are
getting much better homes than they had.
Not if their insurance didn't cover the damage (and it didn't in most cases)
or not if they aren't paying for it out of their pocket. The government, or you
and me, paid put them up, bought tens of thousands of temporary mobile
homes and gave them away, handed out debit cards, and reimbursed
millions to cities that supplied serviceas to the homeless.... but the AREN'T
building them any NEW homes for free.
krp
2007-06-10 13:32:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Uh guy - the people living in hotels etc ARE listed as "homeless" and
are paid for by the U.S. taxpayer! As we type thousands of homes are being
rebuilt. Given the near TOTAL destruction of hundreds of thousands of home
of really SHITTY construction rebuilding them to an acceptable code that
would survive another hurricane isn't done in a few minutes. Most of those
OLD homes were slapped together cracker boxes. What is being built meets
TODAY'S codes to withstand another hurricane. That takes time. It has
nothing to do with race. As the homes are finished the BLACK folks are
getting much better homes than they had.
Not if their insurance didn't cover the damage (and it didn't in most cases)
or not if they aren't paying for it out of their pocket. The government, or you
and me, paid put them up, bought tens of thousands of temporary mobile
homes and gave them away, handed out debit cards, and reimbursed
millions to cities that supplied serviceas to the homeless.... but the AREN'T
building them any NEW homes for free.
Uh yes they are. Federal Funds are used to help those with no insurance.
A client of mine is one of the home builders that FEMA hired to repair homes
that can be repaired and build new ones where they can't. Which is just
about EVERY home in the 9th ward. Most built in the 1920's to NO CODE at
all. Little better than play houses. The new ones are to hurricane code.
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-11 06:38:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by krp
The new ones are to hurricane code.
And completely UNINSURABLE....


Idiot.
PL
2007-06-09 14:48:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Schier
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to the intelligence of the
world.
What rock did you crawl out from under?
Try getting your news somewhere besides the USA.
I have been to Cuba. And you? To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to
language. And an insult to those of us who read such crap. If you call
taking a society that had the third (or second depending on who did the
reporting) highest standard of living in the Western Hemisphere in 1957 and
today his the second lowest is HARDLY in my book being "progressive."
Disregarding the rest of the nonsense in this post, one should be
reminded that the country with the lowest standard of living in the
Western Hemisphere
(snip)

and the country that slided back the furthest is comparative ranking since
1960, Barry?
Which one is that?

PL
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-10 06:17:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Barry Schier
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to the intelligence of the
world.
What rock did you crawl out from under?
Try getting your news somewhere besides the USA.
I have been to Cuba. And you? To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to
language. And an insult to those of us who read such crap. If you call
taking a society that had the third (or second depending on who did the
reporting) highest standard of living in the Western Hemisphere in 1957 and
today his the second lowest is HARDLY in my book being "progressive."
Disregarding the rest of the nonsense in this post, one should be
reminded that the country with the lowest standard of living in the
Western Hemisphere
(snip)
and the country that slided back the furthest is comparative ranking since
1960, Barry?
Which one is that?
The USA.
PL
2007-06-10 16:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by PL
Post by Barry Schier
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to the intelligence of the
world.
What rock did you crawl out from under?
Try getting your news somewhere besides the USA.
I have been to Cuba. And you? To call Cuba "progressive" is an
insult
to
language. And an insult to those of us who read such crap. If you call
taking a society that had the third (or second depending on who did the
reporting) highest standard of living in the Western Hemisphere in
1957
and
today his the second lowest is HARDLY in my book being "progressive."
Disregarding the rest of the nonsense in this post, one should be
reminded that the country with the lowest standard of living in the
Western Hemisphere
(snip)
and the country that slided back the furthest is comparative ranking since
1960, Barry?
Which one is that?
The USA.
Nope.
Cuba: third developed nation in the Americas in 1960 with similar levels of
health care and education as Belgium, France, ... and better than Spain,
Portugal.
Now: a third world nation where 773,000 people need WFP food aid.

PL
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-11 06:39:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Now: a third world nation where 773,000 people need WFP food aid.
Bye-bye shit-for-brains.
Dan Christensen
2007-06-05 12:47:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up
the
whole
Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
[snip PL's same old lies and distortions]
Repeatedly debunked here. Most recently, see the discusssion in the
thread, "Cuba Leads in Sex Education." Bottom line -- while they did
make an important contribution, all MSF did was set up an outreach
program and distribute free condoms. The Cuban government took over
that program and went on to set up its now world renowned AIDS
monitoring and treatment programs. (See original posting here, and
"Achievements of the Revolution" at my website.)
Also let us not forget that Cuba initially dealt with the AIDS problem
by forced quarantine.Rounding up anyone "thought" to be infected with HIV
and placing them in camps. (Gay roundup.)
And what happened when they were proven 'clean' ?
And what happened to the spread of aids in Cuba ?
I am not sure. I know that tremendous international pressure was brought
on Cuba about the quarantine. I also know that Cuba was forced to abandon
the quarantine. I think in part because it didn't work. It just drive those
infected further underground and the infection rate exploded.
Not since the beginning of the epidemic has the infection rate ever
"exploded" in Cuba. In fact, Cuba's HIV infection rate is one of the
lowest in the world
(snip)
and from day 1 people have questioned the reporting, no?
"AIDS in Cuba"
Lancet (08/26/89) Vol. 2, No. 8661, P. 512
"William Anderson of St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Boston writes that he
believes Cuba has not been candid in its reporting of HIV infection and AIDS
cases to the World Health Organization. "
You won't find any credible expert today (we know you have been trying
for years, Mr. Lobbyist!) who has any serious doubts about Cuba health
stats.
Post by PL
after MSF stepped in bringing in even the condoms (millions) that Cuba
didn't have some headway could be made.
New Day for AIDS Policy in Cuba The nation, which has quarantined people
with HIV, is now allowing an international group to design a public health
campaign to prevent virus' spread.
Again, all MSF did was temporarily set up a outreach program to
distribute information and free condoms. I don't mean to say this
wasn't a valuable contribution, but they did NOT, as you seem to be
suggesting, set up the extensive monitoring and treatment programs for
which Cuba is now world-renowned.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-05 15:32:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by krp
Post by David Morgan (MAMS)
Post by krp
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up
the
whole
Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
[snip PL's same old lies and distortions]
Repeatedly debunked here. Most recently, see the discusssion in the
thread, "Cuba Leads in Sex Education." Bottom line -- while they did
make an important contribution, all MSF did was set up an outreach
program and distribute free condoms. The Cuban government took over
that program and went on to set up its now world renowned AIDS
monitoring and treatment programs. (See original posting here, and
"Achievements of the Revolution" at my website.)
Also let us not forget that Cuba initially dealt with the AIDS problem
by forced quarantine.Rounding up anyone "thought" to be infected
with
HIV
and placing them in camps. (Gay roundup.)
And what happened when they were proven 'clean' ?
And what happened to the spread of aids in Cuba ?
I am not sure. I know that tremendous international pressure was brought
on Cuba about the quarantine. I also know that Cuba was forced to abandon
the quarantine. I think in part because it didn't work. It just drive those
infected further underground and the infection rate exploded.
Not since the beginning of the epidemic has the infection rate ever
"exploded" in Cuba. In fact, Cuba's HIV infection rate is one of the
lowest in the world
(snip)
and from day 1 people have questioned the reporting, no?
"AIDS in Cuba"
Lancet (08/26/89) Vol. 2, No. 8661, P. 512
"William Anderson of St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Boston writes that he
believes Cuba has not been candid in its reporting of HIV infection and AIDS
cases to the World Health Organization. "
You won't find any credible expert today
(snip)

Get real comrade Dan.
Cuban "statistics" in all fiels are being questioned by experts.

Even sharp trained Cuban minds like Oscar Espinosa Chepe have described how
Cuban statistics are "labyrinths".
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/26650
and even Raul has admitted that they were vauled in a "flou artistique"
(pardon my French):
"The Revolution cannot lie," he said in comments published by the Communist
Party newspaper Granma. "This isn't saying that there have been comrades who
have lied, but the imprecision, inexact data, consciously or unconsciously
masked, can no longer continue."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/27657

confirmed by international experts:
"Economists outside Cuba preface their research papers with warnings that
the statistics are untrustworthy -- there are no reliable sources."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/27963

So: forget about getting to the complete and accurate truth there. It is
"cloacked" in the Castro information embargo.
Castro does NOT allow any international inspection or verification.

An example from the health sector:


Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit of
the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the University of
Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent three months in
Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers on Cuban health care.
Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was only able to get hold of the
official statistical data and find them not especially trustworthy.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
(link broken)


"WHO and the PanAmerican Health Organization (WHO's Regional Office for the
Western Hemisphere) cannot report to the world without clearance from the
Cuban government."
See: www.promedmail.org Archive Number 19970627.1390


Sociedad
Un falso primer lugar


Sin la existencia de fuentes independientes, ¿cómo los organismos
internacionales pueden certificar los 'logros' cubanos en salud y nutrición?
http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2006/06/un-falso-primer-lugar.html


"Official statistics indicate that by one measure -- life expectancy -- Cuba
is doing quite well: The average Cuban male lives 75.2 years,
compared with the American male's 74.5.
But Juan A. Asensio, a trauma surgeon at the University of Miami and a Cuban
American who has studied the island's medical system, questions first
whether such figures can be trusted."
http://www.mre.gov.br/portugues/noticiario/internacional/selecao_deta...


From Promedmail :
The global electronic reporting system for outbreaks of emerging infectious
diseases & toxins,
open to all sources.
ProMED-mail, the Program for Monitoring
Emerging Diseases, is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases.


" People emigrating from Cuba or visiting Cuba, including international
health representatives, have reported that it is in line with Cuban
Government
policy to report mild cases of dengue as "influenza". Cuban physicians have
confirmed allegations that some disease reporting in Cuba is politically
influenced "
See www.promedmail.org Archive Number 19970627.1390
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
after MSF stepped in bringing in even the condoms (millions) that Cuba
didn't have some headway could be made.
New Day for AIDS Policy in Cuba The nation, which has quarantined people
with HIV, is now allowing an international group to design a public health
campaign to prevent virus' spread.
Again, all MSF did was temporarily set up a outreach program to
distribute information and free condoms.
(snip)

Nope.
It set up the whole system:

New Day for AIDS Policy in Cuba The nation, which has quarantined people
with HIV, is now allowing an international group to design a public health
campaign to prevent virus' spread.
[this refers to the Dutch MSF people referred to in the Pax Christi Report]
http://www.aegis.org/news/Lt/1997/LT970706.html

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar (whenever Dan
Christensen is stuck he resorts to lies, innuendo and personal insults).

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-06 04:28:47 UTC
Permalink
PL
2007-06-06 10:05:18 UTC
Permalink
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame to
bother with]
By which comrade Dan means that he snips what he can't refute
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Not since the beginning of the epidemic has the infection rate ever
"exploded" in Cuba. In fact, Cuba's HIV infection rate is one of the
lowest in the world
(snip)
and from day 1 people have questioned the reporting, no?
No.
False:
From 1989:
"AIDS in Cuba"
Lancet (08/26/89) Vol. 2, No. 8661, P. 512
"William Anderson of St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Boston writes that he
believes Cuba has not been candid in its reporting of HIV infection and AIDS
cases to the World Health Organization. "
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
You won't find any credible expert today
(snip)
Get real comrade Dan.
Cuban "statistics" in all fiels are being questioned by experts.
Even sharp trained Cuban minds like Oscar Espinosa Chepe have described how
Cuban statistics are
"labyrinths".http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/26650
One of your favourite di$$idents?
(snip)

an economist and respected analyst on Cuba that is widely published.
Post by PL
and even Raul has admitted that they were vauled in a "flou artistique"
"The Revolution cannot lie," he said in comments published by the Communist
Party newspaper Granma. "This isn't saying that there have been comrades who
have lied, but the imprecision, inexact data, consciously or
unconsciously
masked, can no longer
continue."http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/27657
A reference to inefficiencies in the economy. Nothing to do health stats.
False: a reference to inaccurate reporting throughout the system masking
reality. Raul confirms what experts in all areas have stated.
No part of the reporting is excluded.
Post by PL
"Economists outside Cuba preface their research papers with warnings that
the statistics are untrustworthy -- there are no reliable
sources."http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/27963
Economists,
amongst others, no
Post by PL
So: forget about getting to the complete and accurate truth there. It is
"cloacked" in the Castro information embargo.
Castro does NOT allow any international inspection or verification.
Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit of
the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the University of
Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent three months in
Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers on Cuban health care.
Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was only able to get hold of the
official statistical data and find them not especially
trustworthy.http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
(link broken)
I wrote to Dr. Thiede to confirm this quote.
(snip)

You never did comrade Dan.
Just another pathetic attempt to claim that you have "private" data that is
better than the public record.
What a pathetic liar you are.
Post by PL
"WHO and the PanAmerican Health Organization (WHO's Regional Office for the
Western Hemisphere) cannot report to the world without clearance from the
Cuban government."
See:www.promedmail.orgArchive Number 19970627.1390
Proves nothing.
(snip)

proves that there is no confirmation and that all data is from sources
others have widely questioned.
Post by PL
Sociedad
Un falso primer lugar
Sin la existencia de fuentes independientes, ¿cómo los organismos
internacionales pueden certificar los 'logros' cubanos en salud y
nutrición?http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2006/06/un-falso-primer-lugar.html
No reply?
Post by PL
"Official statistics indicate that by one measure -- life expectancy -- Cuba
is doing quite well: The average Cuban male lives 75.2 years,
compared with the American male's 74.5.
But Juan A. Asensio, a trauma surgeon at the University of Miami and a Cuban
American who has studied the island's medical system, questions first
whether such figures can be
trusted."http://www.mre.gov.br/portugues/noticiario/internacional/selecao_deta...
Another disgruntled Cuban exile
(snip)

another guy that has first hand knowledge from Cuba you mean.
His doubts and reservations are reflected by others
Post by PL
The global electronic reporting system for outbreaks of emerging infectious
diseases & toxins,
open to all sources.
ProMED-mail, the Program for Monitoring
Emerging Diseases, is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases.
" People emigrating from Cuba or visiting Cuba, including international
health representatives, have reported that it is in line with Cuban
Government
policy to report mild cases of dengue as "influenza". Cuban physicians have
confirmed allegations that some disease reporting in Cuba is politically
influenced "
Seewww.promedmail.org Archive Number 19970627.1390
"However, lack of reporting may simply be an understaffing issue."
Get real comrade Dan. The statement above is clear and even if "errors in
reporting" are at fault it shows that the statistics are NOT reliable.
I take the words of those that have been in the system anytime.
But thanks for admitting that medical experts express grave doubts over
Cuban "statistics"
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
after MSF stepped in bringing in even the condoms (millions) that Cuba
didn't have some headway could be made.
New Day for AIDS Policy in Cuba The nation, which has quarantined people
with HIV, is now allowing an international group to design a public health
campaign to prevent virus' spread.
Again, all MSF did was temporarily set up a outreach program to
distribute information and free condoms.
(snip)
Nope.
A blatant lie.
Nope, a fact confirmed by press reports
Post by PL
New Day for AIDS Policy in Cuba The nation, which has quarantined people
with HIV, is now allowing an international group to design a public health
campaign to prevent virus' spread.
[this refers to the Dutch MSF people referred to in the Pax Christi
Report]http://www.aegis.org/news/Lt/1997/LT970706.html
Please show us your proof that this "public health campaign" was anything
more than an outreach program
(snip)

You claim it was only that. Prove that it was only that.
The facts including the statements from doctors contradict you as usual Mr.
Cyber Liar

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-06 18:51:26 UTC
Permalink
PL
2007-06-06 22:52:10 UTC
Permalink
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame to
bother with]
by which Dan Christensen menas he snipped what he can't refute
Post by PL
Post by PL
Post by PL
and from day 1 people have questioned the reporting, no?
No.
"AIDS in Cuba"
Lancet (08/26/89) Vol. 2, No. 8661, P. 512
"William Anderson of St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Boston writes that he
believes Cuba has not been candid in its reporting of HIV infection and AIDS
cases to the World Health Organization. "
This was 1989, at the beginning of the AIDS epidemic.
so you admit that you lied.
All Cubans statistics are "questioned" comrade Dan. than and today
Post by PL
Post by PL
Even sharp trained Cuban minds like Oscar Espinosa Chepe have
described
how
Cuban statistics are
"labyrinths".http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/26650
One of your favourite di$$idents?
(snip)
an economist and respected analyst on Cuba that is widely published.
You mean at your various Miami mafia websites?
(snip)

Nope.
All kind of websites including the mainstream press.

From Amnsety International:

Oscar Manuel Espinosa Chepe, aged 62, is a former employee of the National
Bank of Cuba. He also worked for the Cuban government as economic counsellor
for the Cuban Embassy in Belgrade. Later, after expressing criticism of
government policies, he became a journalist reporting on economic and other
matters.

Since being detained Oscar Espinosa has suffered health problems. He is
believed to be suffering from a liver condition, a thoracic hernia,
persistent hyper-tension and weight loss. On 20 April he was transferred to
a military hospital, though his family maintains that medical treatment was
withheld.(136)

Oscar Espinosa was convicted under article 91 of the Penal Code and articles
4.1, 4.2a-b, 6.1, 6.2a-b, 7.1, 7.2, 7.3, 8.1, 8.2, 9.1, 9.2, 10 and 11 of
Law 88 to 20 years in prison.(137) He was accused, among other activities,
of "having a regular program on Radio Martí called 'Talking with Chepe,'
where he gave distorted information on the Cuban economy." (138)

Oscar Espinosa lives and was tried in Havana but has been transferred to
Guantánamo provincial prison in eastern Cuba to serve his sentence. His
health problems reportedly continue, and he was said to have again been
taken to hospital in late May.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003

Newsfeed:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/chepe.php
Archive: (560 articles)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=Chepe&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
Post by PL
Post by PL
and even Raul has admitted that they were vauled in a "flou artistique"
"The Revolution cannot lie," he said in comments published by the Communist
Party newspaper Granma. "This isn't saying that there have been
comrades
who
have lied, but the imprecision, inexact data, consciously or unconsciously
masked, can no longer
continue."http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/27657
A reference to inefficiencies in the economy. Nothing to do health stats.
[snip]
(snip)

no mention of limiting the bad reporting to anything indeed
Post by PL
Post by PL
Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit of
the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
University
of
Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent three months in
Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers on Cuban health care.
Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was only able to get hold of the
official statistical data and find them not especially
trustworthy.http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
(link broken)
I wrote to Dr. Thiede to confirm this quote.
(snip)
You never did comrade Dan.
[snip]
Poor pathetic Little Miss Lobbyist...
(snip)

Nope comrade Dan.
the public record stands, your private lies (exposed in the case on for
example Genocide Watch) are ridiculous
Post by PL
Post by PL
"WHO and the PanAmerican Health Organization (WHO's Regional Office
for
the
Western Hemisphere) cannot report to the world without clearance from the
Cuban government."
See:www.promedmail.orgArchiveNumber 19970627.1390
Proves nothing.
(snip)
proves that there is no confirmation and that all data is from sources
others have widely questioned.
It proves nothing of the sort.
Yep it does if an intenational organization can report independently based
on varied reporting it means it is reduced to repeating the "data" provided
by a regime.
But please show us where any independent verification was ever allowed.
A couple of quotes and links maybe?
Post by PL
Post by PL
Sociedad
Un falso primer lugar
Sin la existencia de fuentes independientes, ¿cómo los organismos
internacionales pueden certificar los 'logros' cubanos en salud y
nutrición?http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2006/06/un-falso-primer-lugar.html
No reply?
[snip]
Doesn't merit a serious reply
(snip)

Nope.
you don't dare as it confirms the data above pathetic liar
Post by PL
Post by PL
American who has studied the island's medical system, questions first
whether such figures can be
trusted."http://www.mre.gov.br/portugues/noticiario/internacional/selecao_deta...
Another disgruntled Cuban exile
(snip)
another guy that has first hand knowledge from Cuba you mean.
His doubts and reservations are reflected by others
Not by any credible medical experts.
false.
by various credible medical sources
Post by PL
Post by PL
The global electronic reporting system for outbreaks of emerging infectious
diseases & toxins,
open to all sources.
ProMED-mail, the Program for Monitoring
Emerging Diseases, is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases.
" People emigrating from Cuba or visiting Cuba, including
international
health representatives, have reported that it is in line with Cuban
Government
policy to report mild cases of dengue as "influenza". Cuban
physicians
have
confirmed allegations that some disease reporting in Cuba is politically
influenced "
Seewww.promedmail.orgArchive Number 19970627.1390
"However, lack of reporting may simply be an understaffing issue."
Get real comrade Dan. The statement above is clear and even if "errors in
reporting" are at fault it shows that the statistics are NOT reliable.
I take the words of those that have been in the system anytime.
But thanks for admitting that medical experts express grave doubts over
Cuban "statistics"
[snip]
The author of this posting, a moderator of ProMed Mail and supposedly a
medical expert himself,
Not supposedly, a very respected expert.
the one that had you remowe a lying page from your website, remember
doesn't seem to give much credence to such
False.
he once said he woouldn't trust a Cuban doctor as far as he could throw him
as far as reporting goes, no?
Post by PL
Please show us your proof that this "public health campaign" was anything
more than an outreach program
(snip)
You claim it was only that. Prove that it was only that.
[snip]
So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being treated
under this "public health campaign" of yours.
(sniip)

In Cuba millions can.
you can't back up your false claims. That has been clearly shown Mr. Cyber
Liar

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-07 22:05:49 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 6, 6:52 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by PL
an economist and respected analyst on Cuba that is widely published.
You mean at your various Miami mafia websites?
(snip)
Nope.
All kind of websites including the mainstream press.
[snip]

Please cite even one of his "news reports," other than politically
motivated opinion pieces, that have been published in the mainstream
press. Or one from any of your other di$$ident pals for that matter.
We know you can't.
Post by PL
Post by PL
Post by PL
Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit of
the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
University
of
Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent three months in
Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers on Cuban health care.
Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was only able to get hold of the
official statistical data and find them not especially
trustworthy.http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
(link broken)
I wrote to Dr. Thiede to confirm this quote.
(snip)
You never did comrade Dan.
[snip]
Poor pathetic Little Miss Lobbyist...
(snip)
Nope comrade Dan.
the public record stands, your private lies (exposed in the case on for
example Genocide Watch) are ridiculous
The "public record" in this case has vanished. Nothing in the archives
at the original site. There is no trace of his posting anywhere, other
than in your lying postings in news groups. Again, write to him, if
you dare, MISS Lobbyist. Likewise, write to Mr. Stanton at GW --
again, if you dare. We know you haven't got the balls for it, MISS
Lobbyist!
Post by PL
Post by PL
Post by PL
"WHO and the PanAmerican Health Organization (WHO's Regional Office
for
the
Western Hemisphere) cannot report to the world without clearance from the
Cuban government."
See:www.promedmail.orgArchiveNumber19970627.1390
Proves nothing.
(snip)
proves that there is no confirmation and that all data is from sources
others have widely questioned.
It proves nothing of the sort.
Yep it does if an intenational organization can report independently based
on varied reporting it means it is reduced to repeating the "data" provided
by a regime.
But please show us where any independent verification was ever allowed.
[snip]

Please show us where any credible medical expert seriously questions
Cuban stats. You have tried here yet again, and as always have failed
miserably.

Hundreds of experts have gone to Cuba to see the health care system
for themselves. And the overwhelming consensus is very positive
indeed. (See "Achievements of the Revolution" at my website for a few
examples.)
Post by PL
Post by PL
Post by PL
ProMED-mail, the Program for Monitoring
Emerging Diseases, is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases.
" People emigrating from Cuba or visiting Cuba, including international
health representatives, have reported that it is in line with Cuban
Government
policy to report mild cases of dengue as "influenza". Cuban
physicians
have
confirmed allegations that some disease reporting in Cuba is politically
influenced "
Seewww.promedmail.orgArchiveNumber 19970627.1390
"However, lack of reporting may simply be an understaffing issue."
Get real comrade Dan. The statement above is clear and even if "errors in
reporting" are at fault it shows that the statistics are NOT reliable.
I take the words of those that have been in the system anytime.
But thanks for admitting that medical experts express grave doubts over
Cuban "statistics"
[snip]
The author of this posting, a moderator of ProMed Mail and supposedly a
medical expert himself,
Not supposedly, a very respected expert.
the one that had you remowe a lying page from your website, remember
[snip]

I think you are referring to the medical expert who objected to your
lies about him which I posted at my website (to debunk them). Just
like your lies about Dr. Thiede above.

As for the author of the above posting, he later conceded, "Given the
low reported case:fatality rate in the recent experience, it seems as
though the Cubans are still using these techniques [learned in the
1981 outbreak] and that they are effective." Clearly, he had some
confidence in Cuban methods and reporting.

Once again, we see what a truly desperate liar you are, Mr. Lobbyist!
Post by PL
Post by PL
Please show us your proof that this "public health campaign" was anything
more than an outreach program
(snip)
You claim it was only that. Prove that it was only that.
[snip]
So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being treated
under this
(sniip)
In Cuba millions can.
you can't back up your false claims.
Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
Dan Christensen
2007-06-08 03:05:12 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 7, 6:05 pm, Dan Christensen <***@netcom.ca> wrote:
[snip]
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being treated
under this
(sniip)
In Cuba millions can.
you can't back up your false claims.
Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
While on the island, MSF focused on STD/AIDS and on water and
sanitation, areas where it was able to bring added value to a health
system that already had well-trained medical professionals but lacked
financial resources.

Raising awareness of STD/AIDS

STD/AIDS prevention programs in Havana and Santiago de Cuba targeted
young people and vulnerable groups. MSF carried out awareness
campaigns, trained local health workers and encouraged condom use.

In early 2000, MSF teams and community health workers travelled
through Havana and the provincial capitals for an outreach campaign
called "Carrito por la vida" (Trailer for Life). Riding in a brightly
painted Dutch caravan, teams worked enthusiastically day and night
distributing information and condoms to high risk people, raising
awareness of HIV/AIDS and STDs and promoting universal precautions.
The project was carried out in conjunction with the Ministry of
Health.
http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?objectid=6589C209-DC2C-11D4-B2010060084A6370&component=toolkit.article&method=full_html

Nothing about establishing the monitoring and treatment programs for
which Cuba was later to become world-renowned, demonstrating once
again what a truly desperate liar you are, Mr. Lobbyist!

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-09 15:00:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being treated
under this
(sniip)
In Cuba millions can.
you can't back up your false claims.
Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
While on the island, MSF focused on STD/AIDS and on water and
sanitation, areas where it was able to bring added value to a health
system that already had well-trained medical professionals but lacked
financial resources.
Raising awareness of STD/AIDS
STD/AIDS prevention programs in Havana and Santiago de Cuba targeted
young people and vulnerable groups. MSF carried out awareness
campaigns, trained local health workers and encouraged condom use.
In early 2000, MSF teams and community health workers travelled
through Havana and the provincial capitals for an outreach campaign
called "Carrito por la vida" (Trailer for Life). Riding in a brightly
painted Dutch caravan, teams worked enthusiastically day and night
distributing information and condoms to high risk people, raising
awareness of HIV/AIDS and STDs and promoting universal precautions.
The project was carried out in conjunction with the Ministry of
Health.
http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?objectid=6589C209-DC2C-11D4-B2010060084A6370&component=toolkit.article&method=full_html
Just part of the story he comrade Dan.
This only refers to the last part of the program.
they were there since 1996.

Two Dutch women have led an AIDS-prevention project in Havana since
1996. It distributes six million condoms a year. The project is
increasingly involved
in the distribution of information. The program provides regular
consultation hours and brochures. It is geared mainly to male or female
prostitutes, who chiefly cater to the tourists who frequent Cuba in search
for sex. 'What is more, Cuba is extremely promiscuous', people say, 'because
there is no other type of diversion'. According to official sources, among a
population of 11 million, Cuba has 1.800 HIV-positive patients. Although the
regime's control on the population has been much stricter than in other
countries, it has decreased. This is due to the fact that medical
developments are going downhill. There is a dramatic increase in
sexually-transmitted diseases, although no public official figures are
available. The fear that such diseases may get out of control is probably
the reason why the Ministry of Health staff is unwilling to let the project
thrive. Every once in a while, PWF loses hope due to the Cuban bureaucracy
and inflexibility, although now it is also beginning to see progress. In two
years, the project is to be taken over by Cuban personnel. 'That is sure to
work', say the doctor and her assistant, during a too-costly lunch we share
in a too costly hotel. Later on, we inform both PWF and the nuns of Justitia
et Pax, who work in the poor neighborhoods and know the prostitutes, about
each other's work. Both were ignorant of each other's activities and
hesitant to show interest in learning about it. 'If they also could do
something about the cause of prostitution', was the first reaction, from one
who knows all the ins and outs of Havana's poor neighborhoods.
http://www.antenna.nl/paxchristi/cubaenpo.html#echo
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/pax3.html

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-09 16:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being treated
under this
(sniip)
In Cuba millions can.
you can't back up your false claims.
Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
While on the island, MSF focused on STD/AIDS and on water and
sanitation, areas where it was able to bring added value to a health
system that already had well-trained medical professionals but lacked
financial resources.
Raising awareness of STD/AIDS
STD/AIDS prevention programs in Havana and Santiago de Cuba targeted
young people and vulnerable groups. MSF carried out awareness
campaigns, trained local health workers and encouraged condom use.
In early 2000, MSF teams and community health workers travelled
through Havana and the provincial capitals for an outreach campaign
called "Carrito por la vida" (Trailer for Life). Riding in a brightly
painted Dutch caravan, teams worked enthusiastically day and night
distributing information and condoms to high risk people, raising
awareness of HIV/AIDS and STDs and promoting universal precautions.
The project was carried out in conjunction with the Ministry of
Health.
http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?objectid=6589C209-DC2C...
Just part of the story he comrade Dan.
This only refers to the last part of the program.
they were there since 1996.
Two Dutch women have led an AIDS-prevention project in Havana since
1996. It distributes six million condoms a year. The project is
increasingly involved
in the distribution of information. The program provides regular
consultation hours and brochures. It is geared mainly to male or female
prostitutes, who chiefly cater to the tourists who frequent Cuba in search
for sex. 'What is more, Cuba is extremely promiscuous', people say, 'because
there is no other type of diversion'. According to official sources, among a
population of 11 million, Cuba has 1.800 HIV-positive patients. Although the
regime's control on the population has been much stricter than in other
countries, it has decreased. This is due to the fact that medical
developments are going downhill. There is a dramatic increase in
sexually-transmitted diseases, although no public official figures are
available. The fear that such diseases may get out of control is probably
the reason why the Ministry of Health staff is unwilling to let the project
thrive. Every once in a while, PWF loses hope due to the Cuban bureaucracy
and inflexibility, although now it is also beginning to see progress. In two
years, the project is to be taken over by Cuban personnel. 'That is sure to
work', say the doctor and her assistant, during a too-costly lunch we share
in a too costly hotel. Later on, we inform both PWF and the nuns of Justitia
et Pax, who work in the poor neighborhoods and know the prostitutes, about
each other's work. Both were ignorant of each other's activities and
hesitant to show interest in learning about it. 'If they also could do
something about the cause of prostitution', was the first reaction, from one
who knows all the ins and outs of Havana's poor neighborhoods.http://www.antenna.nl/paxchristi/cubaenpo.html#echohttp://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/pax3.html
Thanks for confirming I was right -- not one AIDS patient treated. And
thanks for comfirming what a truly desperate liar you are, Mr.
Lobbyist!

Dan
Visit my CUBA
PL
2007-06-09 16:44:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being treated
under this
(sniip)
In Cuba millions can.
you can't back up your false claims.
Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
While on the island, MSF focused on STD/AIDS and on water and
sanitation, areas where it was able to bring added value to a health
system that already had well-trained medical professionals but lacked
financial resources.
Raising awareness of STD/AIDS
STD/AIDS prevention programs in Havana and Santiago de Cuba targeted
young people and vulnerable groups. MSF carried out awareness
campaigns, trained local health workers and encouraged condom use.
In early 2000, MSF teams and community health workers travelled
through Havana and the provincial capitals for an outreach campaign
called "Carrito por la vida" (Trailer for Life). Riding in a brightly
painted Dutch caravan, teams worked enthusiastically day and night
distributing information and condoms to high risk people, raising
awareness of HIV/AIDS and STDs and promoting universal precautions.
The project was carried out in conjunction with the Ministry of
Health.
http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?objectid=6589C209-DC2C...
Just part of the story he comrade Dan.
This only refers to the last part of the program.
they were there since 1996.
Two Dutch women have led an AIDS-prevention project in Havana since
1996. It distributes six million condoms a year. The project is
increasingly involved
in the distribution of information. The program provides regular
consultation hours and brochures. It is geared mainly to male or female
prostitutes, who chiefly cater to the tourists who frequent Cuba in search
for sex. 'What is more, Cuba is extremely promiscuous', people say, 'because
there is no other type of diversion'. According to official sources, among a
population of 11 million, Cuba has 1.800 HIV-positive patients. Although the
regime's control on the population has been much stricter than in other
countries, it has decreased. This is due to the fact that medical
developments are going downhill. There is a dramatic increase in
sexually-transmitted diseases, although no public official figures are
available. The fear that such diseases may get out of control is probably
the reason why the Ministry of Health staff is unwilling to let the project
thrive. Every once in a while, PWF loses hope due to the Cuban bureaucracy
and inflexibility, although now it is also beginning to see progress. In two
years, the project is to be taken over by Cuban personnel. 'That is sure to
work', say the doctor and her assistant, during a too-costly lunch we share
in a too costly hotel. Later on, we inform both PWF and the nuns of Justitia
et Pax, who work in the poor neighborhoods and know the prostitutes, about
each other's work. Both were ignorant of each other's activities and
hesitant to show interest in learning about it. 'If they also could do
something about the cause of prostitution', was the first reaction, from one
who knows all the ins and outs of Havana's poor
neighborhoods.http://www.antenna.nl/paxchristi/cubaenpo.html#echohttp://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/pax3.html
Thanks for confirming I was right
actually you are not.

From 1998:

# CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external evaluator
http://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm

AIDS Information Center Opens in Cuba

An MSF information and coordination center was officially opened in Havana,
Cuba, on Tuesday, December 1, World AIDS Day. The center is now fully
operational and is providing counseling, health-care information, and
expanded telephone hotline hours. A photographic exhibition about AIDS by a
Cuban photographer opened during the celebration as did a display of sixteen
Cuban panels from the international AIDS quilt project in which people pay
tribute to loved ones who have been lost to the disease.
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/12-14-1998.cfm

A call-in AIDS "hotline" started by MSF became operational in Havana, Cuba
on September 1 and is already receiving approximately 45 calls per day.
Callers have sought information about AIDS and other STDs as well as
undesired intimacies at work and sexual violence in the home. Two MSF
psychologists have trained 15 volunteers to answer telephone queries.
Various Cuban media outlets have publicized the phone number and calls have
come in from all over the country. Plans are underway to extend the service
to the evening hours to accommodate more callers. The AIDS information line
is part of a larger AIDS information and coordination center and awareness
campaign that MSF is launching in Cuba.
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/09-21-1998.cfm

From 2001:

MSF projects in more than 80 countries address HIV as part of integrated
health care for populations in danger. Moreover, MSF has specific AIDS
control projects in Rwanda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Malawi, Mozambique,
Democratic Republic of Congo (former Zaire), Armenia, Russia, Brazil, Cuba,
Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru, Burma, Cambodia, China, Khazakhstan,
Kyrghizia, the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, and among
http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&objectid=04560986-3730-42FD-A50C8C6FC73EC291&method=full_html

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
PL
2007-06-09 15:12:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being treated
under this
(sniip)
In Cuba millions can.
you can't back up your false claims.
Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
New AIDS Information Line in Cuba Successful

From 1998:

# CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external evaluator
http://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm

AIDS Information Center Opens in Cuba

An MSF information and coordination center was officially opened in Havana,
Cuba, on Tuesday, December 1, World AIDS Day. The center is now fully
operational and is providing counseling, health-care information, and
expanded telephone hotline hours. A photographic exhibition about AIDS by a
Cuban photographer opened during the celebration as did a display of sixteen
Cuban panels from the international AIDS quilt project in which people pay
tribute to loved ones who have been lost to the disease.
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/12-14-1998.cfm

A call-in AIDS "hotline" started by MSF became operational in Havana, Cuba
on September 1 and is already receiving approximately 45 calls per day.
Callers have sought information about AIDS and other STDs as well as
undesired intimacies at work and sexual violence in the home. Two MSF
psychologists have trained 15 volunteers to answer telephone queries.
Various Cuban media outlets have publicized the phone number and calls have
come in from all over the country. Plans are underway to extend the service
to the evening hours to accommodate more callers. The AIDS information line
is part of a larger AIDS information and coordination center and awareness
campaign that MSF is launching in Cuba.
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/09-21-1998.cfm

From 2001:

MSF projects in more than 80 countries address HIV as part of integrated
health care for populations in danger. Moreover, MSF has specific AIDS
control projects in Rwanda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Malawi, Mozambique,
Democratic Republic of Congo (former Zaire), Armenia, Russia, Brazil, Cuba,
Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru, Burma, Cambodia, China, Khazakhstan,
Kyrghizia, the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, and among
http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&objectid=04560986-3730-42FD-A50C8C6FC73EC291&method=full_html

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-09 16:06:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being treated
under this
(sniip)
In Cuba millions can.
you can't back up your false claims.
Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
New AIDS Information Line in Cuba Successful
# CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external evaluatorhttp://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm
AIDS Information Center Opens in Cuba
An MSF information and coordination center was officially opened in Havana,
Cuba, on Tuesday, December 1, World AIDS Day. The center is now fully
operational and is providing counseling, health-care information, and
expanded telephone hotline hours. A photographic exhibition about AIDS by a
Cuban photographer opened during the celebration as did a display of sixteen
Cuban panels from the international AIDS quilt project in which people pay
tribute to loved ones who have been lost to the disease.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/12-14-1998.cfm
A call-in AIDS "hotline" started by MSF became operational in Havana, Cuba
on September 1 and is already receiving approximately 45 calls per day.
Callers have sought information about AIDS and other STDs as well as
undesired intimacies at work and sexual violence in the home. Two MSF
psychologists have trained 15 volunteers to answer telephone queries.
Various Cuban media outlets have publicized the phone number and calls have
come in from all over the country. Plans are underway to extend the service
to the evening hours to accommodate more callers. The AIDS information line
is part of a larger AIDS information and coordination center and awareness
campaign that MSF is launching in Cuba.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/09-21-1998.cfm
MSF projects in more than 80 countries address HIV as part of integrated
health care for populations in danger. Moreover, MSF has specific AIDS
control projects in Rwanda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Malawi, Mozambique,
Democratic Republic of Congo (former Zaire), Armenia, Russia, Brazil, Cuba,
Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru, Burma, Cambodia, China, Khazakhstan,
Kyrghizia, the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, and amonghttp://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
Again, thanks for confirming I was right -- not one AIDS patient was
treated by the MSF in Cuba. And thanks for confirming what a truly
desperate liar you are, Mr. Lobbyist!

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-09 16:46:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snip]
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being treated
under this
(sniip)
In Cuba millions can.
you can't back up your false claims.
Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
New AIDS Information Line in Cuba Successful
# CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external
evaluatorhttp://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm
AIDS Information Center Opens in Cuba
An MSF information and coordination center was officially opened in Havana,
Cuba, on Tuesday, December 1, World AIDS Day. The center is now fully
operational and is providing counseling, health-care information, and
expanded telephone hotline hours. A photographic exhibition about AIDS by a
Cuban photographer opened during the celebration as did a display of sixteen
Cuban panels from the international AIDS quilt project in which people pay
tribute to loved ones who have been lost to the
disease.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/12-14-1998.cfm
A call-in AIDS "hotline" started by MSF became operational in Havana, Cuba
on September 1 and is already receiving approximately 45 calls per day.
Callers have sought information about AIDS and other STDs as well as
undesired intimacies at work and sexual violence in the home. Two MSF
psychologists have trained 15 volunteers to answer telephone queries.
Various Cuban media outlets have publicized the phone number and calls have
come in from all over the country. Plans are underway to extend the service
to the evening hours to accommodate more callers. The AIDS information line
is part of a larger AIDS information and coordination center and awareness
campaign that MSF is launching in
Cuba.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/09-21-1998.cfm
MSF projects in more than 80 countries address HIV as part of integrated
health care for populations in danger. Moreover, MSF has specific AIDS
control projects in Rwanda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Malawi, Mozambique,
Democratic Republic of Congo (former Zaire), Armenia, Russia, Brazil, Cuba,
Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru, Burma, Cambodia, China,
Khazakhstan,
Kyrghizia, the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, and
amonghttp://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
Again, thanks for confirming
(snip)

The texts whows you were lying:
"CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external evaluator"
http://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm

The WHOLE programme comrade Dan

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-10 02:59:10 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 9, 12:46 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's already debunked here, or too lame to
bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being
treated
under this
(sniip)
In Cuba millions can.
you can't back up your false claims.
Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
New AIDS Information Line in Cuba Successful
# CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external
evaluatorhttp://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm
AIDS Information Center Opens in Cuba
An MSF information and coordination center was officially opened in Havana,
Cuba, on Tuesday, December 1, World AIDS Day. The center is now fully
operational and is providing counseling, health-care information, and
expanded telephone hotline hours. A photographic exhibition about AIDS by a
Cuban photographer opened during the celebration as did a display of sixteen
Cuban panels from the international AIDS quilt project in which people pay
tribute to loved ones who have been lost to the
disease.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/12-14-1998.cfm
A call-in AIDS "hotline" started by MSF became operational in Havana, Cuba
on September 1 and is already receiving approximately 45 calls per day.
Callers have sought information about AIDS and other STDs as well as
undesired intimacies at work and sexual violence in the home. Two MSF
psychologists have trained 15 volunteers to answer telephone queries.
Various Cuban media outlets have publicized the phone number and calls have
come in from all over the country. Plans are underway to extend the service
to the evening hours to accommodate more callers. The AIDS information line
is part of a larger AIDS information and coordination center and awareness
campaign that MSF is launching in
Cuba.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/09-21-1998.cfm
MSF projects in more than 80 countries address HIV as part of integrated
health care for populations in danger. Moreover, MSF has specific AIDS
control projects in Rwanda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Malawi, Mozambique,
Democratic Republic of Congo (former Zaire), Armenia, Russia, Brazil, Cuba,
Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru, Burma, Cambodia, China, Khazakhstan,
Kyrghizia, the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, and
amonghttp://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
Again, thanks for confirming
(snip)
"CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external evaluator"http://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm
Ummmm... just what do you think this proves, Mr. Lobbyist??? This is
the only mention of Cuba, and it is nothing but a title. Not one
mention of even a single AIDS patients being treated by MSF in Cuba.

I guess it just confirms what a truly desperate liar you are.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-10 16:34:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's already debunked here, or too lame to
bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being
treated
under this
(sniip)
In Cuba millions can.
you can't back up your false claims.
Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
New AIDS Information Line in Cuba Successful
# CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external
evaluatorhttp://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm
AIDS Information Center Opens in Cuba
An MSF information and coordination center was officially opened in Havana,
Cuba, on Tuesday, December 1, World AIDS Day. The center is now fully
operational and is providing counseling, health-care information, and
expanded telephone hotline hours. A photographic exhibition about AIDS
by
a
Cuban photographer opened during the celebration as did a display of sixteen
Cuban panels from the international AIDS quilt project in which people pay
tribute to loved ones who have been lost to the
disease.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/12-14-1998.cfm
A call-in AIDS "hotline" started by MSF became operational in Havana, Cuba
on September 1 and is already receiving approximately 45 calls per day.
Callers have sought information about AIDS and other STDs as well as
undesired intimacies at work and sexual violence in the home. Two MSF
psychologists have trained 15 volunteers to answer telephone queries.
Various Cuban media outlets have publicized the phone number and calls have
come in from all over the country. Plans are underway to extend the service
to the evening hours to accommodate more callers. The AIDS information line
is part of a larger AIDS information and coordination center and awareness
campaign that MSF is launching in
Cuba.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/09-21-1998.cfm
MSF projects in more than 80 countries address HIV as part of integrated
health care for populations in danger. Moreover, MSF has specific AIDS
control projects in Rwanda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Malawi, Mozambique,
Democratic Republic of Congo (former Zaire), Armenia, Russia, Brazil, Cuba,
Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru, Burma, Cambodia, China, Khazakhstan,
Kyrghizia, the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, and
amonghttp://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
Again, thanks for confirming
(snip)
"CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external
evaluator"http://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm
Ummmm... just what do you think this proves,
(snip

What it says: they overhauled the system as confirmed by other press
reports.

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-11 04:45:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's already debunked here, or too lame to
bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient
being
treated
under this
(sniip)
In Cuba millions can.
you can't back up your false claims.
Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
New AIDS Information Line in Cuba Successful
# CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external
evaluatorhttp://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm
AIDS Information Center Opens in Cuba
An MSF information and coordination center was officially opened in Havana,
Cuba, on Tuesday, December 1, World AIDS Day. The center is now fully
operational and is providing counseling, health-care information, and
expanded telephone hotline hours. A photographic exhibition about AIDS
by
a
Cuban photographer opened during the celebration as did a display of sixteen
Cuban panels from the international AIDS quilt project in which people pay
tribute to loved ones who have been lost to the
disease.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/12-14-1998.cfm
A call-in AIDS "hotline" started by MSF became operational in Havana, Cuba
on September 1 and is already receiving approximately 45 calls per day.
Callers have sought information about AIDS and other STDs as well as
undesired intimacies at work and sexual violence in the home. Two MSF
psychologists have trained 15 volunteers to answer telephone queries.
Various Cuban media outlets have publicized the phone number and calls have
come in from all over the country. Plans are underway to extend the service
to the evening hours to accommodate more callers. The AIDS information line
is part of a larger AIDS information and coordination center and awareness
campaign that MSF is launching in
Cuba.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/09-21-1998.cfm
MSF projects in more than 80 countries address HIV as part of integrated
health care for populations in danger. Moreover, MSF has specific AIDS
control projects in Rwanda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Malawi, Mozambique,
Democratic Republic of Congo (former Zaire), Armenia, Russia, Brazil, Cuba,
Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru, Burma, Cambodia, China, Khazakhstan,
Kyrghizia, the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, and
amonghttp://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
Again, thanks for confirming
(snip)
"CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external
evaluator"http://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm
Ummmm... just what do you think this proves,
(snip
What it says: they overhauled the system as confirmed by other press
reports.
It says nothing of the sort, Mr. Lobbyist. No mention of even one AIDS
patient being treated by the MSF in Cuba.

Do get back to us when you have the facts to support your outrageous
claims here. Until then, do not expect a reply from me on this matter.
As it stands, you have once again been exposed for the truly desperate
liar that you are, Mr. Lobbyist.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-09 14:57:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by PL
an economist and respected analyst on Cuba that is widely published.
You mean at your various Miami mafia websites?
(snip)
Nope.
All kind of websites including the mainstream press.
[snip]
Please cite even one of his "news reports,"
(snip)

Just have a look:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/chepe.php
Here you have about 560 by or about him:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=Chepe&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by PL
Post by PL
Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics
Unit
of
the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
University
of
Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent three
months
in
Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers on Cuban
health
care.
Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was only able to get hold
of
the
official statistical data and find them not especially
trustworthy.http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
(link broken)
I wrote to Dr. Thiede to confirm this quote.
(snip)
You never did comrade Dan.
[snip]
Poor pathetic Little Miss Lobbyist...
(snip)
Nope comrade Dan.
the public record stands, your private lies (exposed in the case on for
example Genocide Watch) are ridiculous
The "public record" in this case has vanished.
(snip)

but you have admitted that that was the public record over and over again.
The fact that a message on a bullitin board expires doesn't change anything
comrade Dan.
Your private lies have appeared nowhere and never but in your propaganda
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by PL
Post by PL
"WHO and the PanAmerican Health Organization (WHO's Regional Office
for
the
Western Hemisphere) cannot report to the world without clearance
from
the
Cuban government."
See:www.promedmail.orgArchiveNumber19970627.1390
Proves nothing.
(snip)
proves that there is no confirmation and that all data is from sources
others have widely questioned.
It proves nothing of the sort.
Yep it does if an intenational organization can report independently based
on varied reporting it means it is reduced to repeating the "data" provided
by a regime.
But please show us where any independent verification was ever allowed.
[snip]
Please show us where any credible medical expert seriously questions
Cuban stats.
(snip)

Have done so over and over again in this thread.
Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit of
the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the University of
Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent three months in
Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers on Cuban health care.
Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was only able to get hold of the
official statistical data and find them not especially trustworthy.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
(link broken)


"WHO and the PanAmerican Health Organization (WHO's Regional Office for the
Western Hemisphere) cannot report to the world without clearance from the
Cuban government."
See: www.promedmail.org Archive Number 19970627.1390


Sociedad
Un falso primer lugar


Sin la existencia de fuentes independientes, ¿cómo los organismos
internacionales pueden certificar los 'logros' cubanos en salud y nutrición?
http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2006/06/un-falso-primer-lugar.html


"Official statistics indicate that by one measure -- life expectancy -- Cuba
is doing quite well: The average Cuban male lives 75.2 years,
compared with the American male's 74.5.
But Juan A. Asensio, a trauma surgeon at the University of Miami and a Cuban
American who has studied the island's medical system, questions first
whether such figures can be trusted."
http://www.mre.gov.br/portugues/noticiario/internacional/selecao_deta...


From Promedmail :
The global electronic reporting system for outbreaks of emerging infectious
diseases & toxins,
open to all sources.
ProMED-mail, the Program for Monitoring
Emerging Diseases, is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases.


" People emigrating from Cuba or visiting Cuba, including international
health representatives, have reported that it is in line with Cuban
Government
policy to report mild cases of dengue as "influenza". Cuban physicians have
confirmed allegations that some disease reporting in Cuba is politically
influenced "
See www.promedmail.org Archive Number 19970627.1390
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by PL
Post by PL
ProMED-mail, the Program for Monitoring
Emerging Diseases, is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases.
" People emigrating from Cuba or visiting Cuba, including international
health representatives, have reported that it is in line with Cuban
Government
policy to report mild cases of dengue as "influenza". Cuban
physicians
have
confirmed allegations that some disease reporting in Cuba is politically
influenced "
Seewww.promedmail.orgArchiveNumber 19970627.1390
"However, lack of reporting may simply be an understaffing issue."
Get real comrade Dan. The statement above is clear and even if "errors in
reporting" are at fault it shows that the statistics are NOT reliable.
I take the words of those that have been in the system anytime.
But thanks for admitting that medical experts express grave doubts over
Cuban "statistics"
[snip]
The author of this posting, a moderator of ProMed Mail and supposedly a
medical expert himself,
Not supposedly, a very respected expert.
the one that had you remowe a lying page from your website, remember
[snip]
I think you are referring to the medical expert who objected to your
lies about him
(snip)

Nope.
he objected to the lies and falsification YOU put out in inusent and on your
internet site.
he had a page from YOUR website removed comrade Dan.
Those are the facts.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by PL
Please show us your proof that this "public health campaign" was anything
more than an outreach program
(snip)
You claim it was only that. Prove that it was only that.
[snip]
So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being treated
under this
(sniip)
In Cuba millions can.
you can't back up your false claims.
Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist.
(snip)

Those are the people that count comrade Dan.
Not your propaganda

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar (whenever Dan
Christensen is stuck he resorts to lies, innuendo and personal insults).

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-09 16:36:02 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 9, 10:57 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by PL
an economist and respected analyst on Cuba that is widely published.
You mean at your various Miami mafia websites?
(snip)
Nope.
All kind of websites including the mainstream press.
[snip]
Please cite even one of his "news reports,"
(snip)
Just have a look:http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/chepe.php
Here you have about 560 by or about him:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=Chepe&submit=S...
Please select even one of these 560 entries that is news report (not
an opinion piece) written by this di$$ident of yours published in the
mainstream media. We know you can't.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by PL
Post by PL
Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics
Unit
of
the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
University
of
Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent three
months
in
Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers on Cuban
health
care.
Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was only able to get hold
of
the
official statistical data and find them not especially
trustworthy.http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
(link broken)
I wrote to Dr. Thiede to confirm this quote.
(snip)
You never did comrade Dan.
[snip]
Poor pathetic Little Miss Lobbyist...
(snip)
Nope comrade Dan.
the public record stands, your private lies (exposed in the case on for
example Genocide Watch) are ridiculous
The "public record" in this case has vanished.
(snip)
but you have admitted that that was the public record over and over again.
Enough of your girlish games! If you had the balls, MISS Lobbyist, you
would confirm by writing to him, as I did, that you took this quote
out of context. As a health economist, he was talking about financial
data. He actually thinks the mortality stats (basic health indicators
like infant mortality, etc.) are "quite rigorous" (previous posting).
Post by PL
The fact that a message on a bullitin board expires doesn't change anything
comrade Dan.
[snip]

Messages for this board are archived. And the quote in question cannot
be found in the archives. This suggests that Dr. Thiede may have had
this misquote removed.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
I think you are referring to the medical expert who objected to your
lies about him
(snip)
Nope.
he objected to the lies and falsification YOU put out in inusent and on your
internet site.
[snip]

It was YOUR lies he objected to, Mr. Lobbyist -- just like your lies
about Dr. Thiede (above). Everything I posted about him, he himself
has posted online, the only exceptions being your lies about him
believing Cuban health stats to be falsified. In my zeal to expose
your lies, I inadvertently gave you a platform for them at my website
-- a mistake in hindsight. You really are a pathetic little fish when
it comes right down to it.

Dan
Visit by CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-09 16:53:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by PL
an economist and respected analyst on Cuba that is widely published.
You mean at your various Miami mafia websites?
(snip)
Nope.
All kind of websites including the mainstream press.
[snip]
Please cite even one of his "news reports,"
(snip)
Just have a look:http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/chepe.php
Here you have about 560 by or about
him:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=Chepe&submit=S...
Please select even one of these 560 entries that is news report (not
an opinion piece) written by this di$$ident of yours published in the
mainstream media. We know you can't.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by PL
Post by PL
Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics
Unit
of
the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
University
of
Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent three
months
in
Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers on Cuban
health
care.
Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was only able to get hold
of
the
official statistical data and find them not especially
trustworthy.http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
(link broken)
I wrote to Dr. Thiede to confirm this quote.
(snip)
You never did comrade Dan.
[snip]
Poor pathetic Little Miss Lobbyist...
(snip)
Nope comrade Dan.
the public record stands, your private lies (exposed in the case on for
example Genocide Watch) are ridiculous
The "public record" in this case has vanished.
(snip)
but you have admitted that that was the public record over and over again.
Enough of your girlish games!
(snip)

Do you deny you yourself saw it there "Miss Cuber Liar"?
I can of course post proof.
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
The fact that a message on a bullitin board expires doesn't change anything
comrade Dan.
[snip]
Messages for this board are archived.
(snip)

Nope.
not that one.
Post some post from the same period comrade Dan........
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
I think you are referring to the medical expert who objected to your
lies about him
(snip)
Nope.
he objected to the lies and falsification YOU put out in inusent and on your
internet site.
[snip]
It was YOUR lies he objected
(snip)

Nope.
He acted TOGETHER with me to have your lies and falsifications removed.
he said:

- on the object that needed to be romved (the page you desperately wanted to
keep up)

"Please remove the following very offensive web site
http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/PL.html>http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/PL.html

- on why:

"The extreme distortions made on this site are both offensive and legally
unsupportable.

Please remove this web site as soon as you can. It does much harm and no
good
at all."

YOUR LIES on YOUR WEBSITE comrade dan and despite your protestations it was
removed. You had to as your IP provider warned you that your whole site
would be removed and your account closed if you did not remove the
slanderous and abusive materials.
You put it up, we got it down.
You are still pissed off about it, good.
It merely shows what a serial liar you are.

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-10 03:52:42 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 9, 12:53 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Poor pathetic Little Miss Lobbyist...
(snip)
Nope comrade Dan.
the public record stands, your private lies (exposed in the case on for
example Genocide Watch) are ridiculous
The "public record" in this case has vanished.
(snip)
but you have admitted that that was the public record over and over again.
Enough of your girlish games!
(snip)
Do you deny you yourself saw it there?
The point is it was a quote taken out of context, and no longer
appears anywhere at the website, not even in their archives.
Post by PL
I can of course post proof.
Be my guest.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
The fact that a message on a bullitin board expires doesn't change anything
comrade Dan.
[snip]
Messages for this board are archived.
(snip)
Nope.
not that one.
Post some post from the same period comrade Dan........
[snip]

I will try. Give us your proof of exactly when it was posted. And
while you are at, if you can find those long-lost balls of yours, MISS
Lobbyist, then write to Dr. Thiede on this matter yourself, as I did.
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
I think you are referring to the medical expert who objected to your
lies about him
(snip)
Nope.
he objected to the lies and falsification YOU put out in inusent and on your
internet site.
[snip]
It was YOUR lies he objected
(snip)
Nope.
He acted TOGETHER with me to have your lies and falsifications removed.
- on the object that needed to be romved (the page you desperately wanted to
keep up)
"Please remove the following very offensive web sitehttp://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/PL.html>http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/PL.html
"The extreme distortions made on this site are both offensive and legally
unsupportable.
[snip]

Here he is referring to your lies about him, which I regrettably
posted at my website if only to debunk to them -- lies to the effect
that he believed Cuban health stats were falsified, just like your
lies about Dr. Thiede above.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-10 16:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Poor pathetic Little Miss Lobbyist...
(snip)
Nope comrade Dan.
the public record stands, your private lies (exposed in the case on for
example Genocide Watch) are ridiculous
The "public record" in this case has vanished.
(snip)
but you have admitted that that was the public record over and over again.
Enough of your girlish games!
(snip)
Do you deny you yourself saw it there?
The point is it was a quote taken out of context, and no longer
appears anywhere at the website, not even in their archives.
Post by PL
I can of course post proof.
Be my guest.
You never claimed the message wasn't posted:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/search?q=thiede+author%3ADan+Christensen&start=30&sa=N&scoring=d&hl=en&
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
The fact that a message on a bullitin board expires doesn't change anything
comrade Dan.
[snip]
Messages for this board are archived.
(snip)
Nope.
not that one.
Post some post from the same period comrade Dan........
[snip]
I will try.
(snip)

Get real.
You can't
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
I think you are referring to the medical expert who objected to your
lies about him
(snip)
Nope.
he objected to the lies and falsification YOU put out in inusent and
on
your
internet site.
[snip]
It was YOUR lies he objected
(snip)
Nope.
He acted TOGETHER with me to have your lies and falsifications removed.
- on the object that needed to be romved (the page you desperately wanted to
keep up)
"Please remove the following very offensive web
sitehttp://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/PL.html>http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/PL.html
"The extreme distortions made on this site are both offensive and legally
unsupportable.
[snip]
Here he is referring to your lies about him,
(snip)

Nope.
About the distortions YOU posted on YOUR website in this - now removed -
page:
http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/PL.html

The page you desperately tried to keep up.
The contents of which you posted to usenet when forced to remove the page.
The messages you claimed you would have removed and never did.

You are a hypocrite serial liar Dan Christensen

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-11 04:39:26 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 10, 12:39 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Post by PL
Post by Dan Christensen
Messages for this board are archived.
(snip)
Nope.
not that one.
Post some post from the same period comrade Dan........
[snip]
I will try.
(snip)
Get real.
You can't
[snip]

Not suprisingly, you cannot tell us when the item in question was
posted to the Stanford website.

Do get back to us when you have ALL the facts, Mr. Lobbyist. Until
then, do not expect a reply from me on this matter.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
Dan Christensen
2007-06-06 04:31:50 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 5, 11:32 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Quote me
[snip]

You would like us to forget all about your little indiscretion here
some years ago -- you actually boasting about your lobbying exploits,
the schmoozing, the golf games, etc. Too bad! It is now a matter of
public record. In addition to your own words here, we have your
prodigious production stats here and at other forums.

For all the quotes and details, see the thread "Top Official: US Wants
Cuba 'Liberation'" where our Mr. Lobbyist here obligingly runs through
almost his entire repertoire of desperate lies, distortions and
evasions, including those here, each debunked by yours truly at:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_frm/thread/1ae3dea90e537555/da566b8afe2111a2?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1&hl=en#da566b8afe2111a2

Really, isn't it time for you to come clean on this matter, Mr.
Lobbyist? Your continued denials only serve to undermine what little
credibility you have left. Until you can do so, and if you are simply
going to keep repeating your tired old lies and evasions, do not
expect a reply from me on this matter.
Post by PL
Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html
[snip]

That was 4 years ago. As AI reiterated earlier this year:

"Amnesty International has called for the US embargo against Cuba to
be lifted, as it is highly detrimental to Cubans' enjoyment of a range
of economic, social and cultural rights, such as the right to food,
health and sanitation - particularly affecting the weakest and most
vulnerable members of the population. According to UNICEF, the
availability of medicines and basic medical materials has decreased in
Cuba as a consequence of the US embargo against the island." (AI
website)

Also see featured article, "Is the US embargo a form of genocide?" at
my website.

Mr. Lobbyist would actually have you believe that, despite their
obvious condemnation of his beloved embargo here, AI would actually
support these cruel sanctions of his for as long as it takes for
certain of his "preconditions" to be met! Yes, he really is that
desperate, that stupid and that cruel! Whatever it takes, right, Mr.
Lobbyist?


Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-06 09:38:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]
Post by PL
Quote me
[snip]
You would like us to forget all about your little indiscretion here
snip)

There is no "indescretion" comrade Dan Christensen and your constant
inablility to post direct quotes with links shows that you know you are
lying Mr. Cyber-Liar
and Cyber-Stalker.
Post by Dan Christensen
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_frm/thread/1ae3dea90e537555/da566b8afe2111a2?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1&hl=en#da566b8afe2111a2
Nothing there comrade Dan. No links and quotes. Just you repeating your
lies.

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
PL
2007-06-05 08:11:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Christensen
correction
Recent news articles:http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/aids.php
Over 350 articles on aids in
Cuba:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22aids%22+OR+...
How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the whole
Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
[snip PL's same old lies and distortions]
By which Canadian Stalinist Dan Christensen means that he snipped what he
couldn't refute.
Post by Dan Christensen
Repeatedly debunked here.
(snip)

Never "debunked" comrade Dan.
Just snipped as you do here.

PL
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